Mueller Finds 10 Obstruction Cases That Barr Says Aren't Crimes

Discussion in 'United States' started by Len_A, Apr 18, 2019.

  1. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Well-Known Member

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    Motive is necessary to establish if you wish to charge someone with breaking certain laws. Such laws always state this explicitly in their text.
     
  2. Asherah

    Asherah Active Member

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    I admit I despise Trump, but I try to avoid letting my animosity be the basis of my judgment. That's why rule of law is so important. For Dems, it should not be about finding some excuse to get rid of him. For Trumpists, it should not be about defending or ignoring whatever he does. We should all be able to agree that rule of law should take precedence.
     
  3. Asherah

    Asherah Active Member

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    Agreed, but based on the evidence currently available, it does appear that his obstructive actions were based on corrupt intent. Trump had the opportunity to state his side of it, but failed to answer Mueller's questions. Perhaps if he's impeached, Trump will reveal the non-corrupt motives we're currently in the dark about.
     
  4. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    You are describing an ideal world that seldom ever exists in reality

    And certainly does not exist today

    You are more reasonable than most of the libs attacking trump

    So when I excoriate them in the most bitter and insulting language I can get away with consider yourself excluded

    I cant avoid feeling a deep sense of outrage at the way trump is being harrassed by the losers of the last presidential election

    Because all the important issues I voted for are being ignored

    So I find myself in a dogfight against enemies who do not care about the truth

    They arent looking for the truth that is somewhere between awful and perfection

    They just want to overthow a president

    And that makes me fighting mad
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  5. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    Untimely or improperly completing and submitting some certification form is a "process crime". Bill Clinton in open court and under oath denied having sex with Monica Lewinsky.
     
  6. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Well-Known Member

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    Bottom line is no collusion and the collusion hoax is over.
     
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  7. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    Since when are the motives for a crime, like obstruction even an issue, to whether a crime in fact has occurred, and is there enough evidence to warrant prosecution?
    The theory in this case is that Trump's motive in obstruction would be to avoid his impeachment, which would be hard to show given his insistence he had not colluded. Of course, that could be a lie, and if it was, then every time he tweeted "no collusion" could be evidence of obstruction, but how do we overcome the problem Mueller couldn't find evidence of his collusion?
     
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  8. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Russians have been doing this for decades. The latest is the Trump dossier using Russian sources and paid for by the DNC.

    There is no obstruction of justice for saying that a person should be fired but then not firing them.
     
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  9. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Almost all of the indictments are for crimes created by the investigation, process crimes. For instance, Papadopoulus spent 14 days in jail because he stated he had a meeting one month before he had the meeting. Like the process crime that Flynn was charged with because the Mueller team decided to charge him for lying even though the interviewing FBI agents determined they didn't think he was lying. The Mueller team decided to go after his son and that is when Flynn pleaded guilty since the Mueller team had already ruined his finances. These are very typical Weissmann tactics and Weissmann has a history of over stepping and being overturned.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
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  10. Asherah

    Asherah Active Member

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    Obviously some process crimes are more serious than others. Perjury and obstruction can be pretty serious, although individual instances can be more or less serious. Decide for yourself if Clinton's perjury and Trump's potential obstruction are serious, but don't dismiss either simply because they are "process crimes."
     
  11. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can be correct and still be charged with a process crime if the prosecution disagrees with you. Flynn was trapped into a situation where he willingly cooperated with the FBI without counsel because he thought he was helping the FBI but this was not about helping the FBI but about weaving a narrative to go after Trump. That is why they went after his son. Indictments look good, like they are doing their job, yet in the end, Mueller found no collusion or conspiracy, which they knew very early on. This was all about trying to get Trump on obstruction and why they used ridiculous actions like an armed swat team and CNN to arrest old men during the night. This was done to encourage Trump to do something drastic like stopping the investigation which could be used by Congress to start impeachment proceedings. Problem is, it didn't work so the Mueller team did something that was political instead of legal by punting on obstruction to feed the narrative and put the burden on Barr. That is also why Barr kept Rosenstein on because he knows the game they were playing but in the end it will not matter. The democrats have made up their mind since Trump was elected that they want to overturn a free and fair election spitting in the face of the American voters.
     
  12. Asherah

    Asherah Active Member

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    Flynn lied about crimes he had committed. There's zero evidence anyone tried to get him, or anyone else, to make up stuff on Trump. He was rewarded for cooperating by only being charged with lying, and not the crimes, and he got the reward in spite of Flynn not making stuff up on Trump, as you claim they were trying to do. They were performing an investigation, OF COURSE they wanted information.

    Indictments encourage others to cooperate, so they are helpful to an ongoing investigation. Provide some support for your claim that Mueller knew early on there was no conspiracy.

    Sorry, but that's looney tunes conspiracy theory nonsense. There is zero evidence for any of this. Trump's problem is that he behaved like he was guilty. Had Trump let the investigation proceed, and kept out of it, he would have been fine. Why do you suppose he didn't? I won't invent a scenario that assumes anything nefarious, but it is certainly suspicious.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  13. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious, why do YOU think Trump behaved so suspiciously?
     
  14. Plus Ultra

    Plus Ultra Well-Known Member

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    How serious a crime is it to inflate the value of your property when refinancing a mortgage (like the SDNY is persecuting Manafort for)?
     
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  15. AFM

    AFM Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, Weissmann destroyed accounting giant Arthur Anderson resulting in the loss of tens of thousands of jobs. The ruling was later overturned by the Supreme Court.
     
  16. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Yes I suppose voters respond to pointless, stupid sound bites. I guess it is more fun for them than legislating. At least it is more entertaining for us.
     
  17. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    True. They wouldn't make sense to a partisan.
     
  18. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Sure. Just not your version of reality.
     
  19. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    The comment derives not from the law but from common sense. No actual obstruction occurred. Mueller completed his investigation without interference. He tried to obstruct in the legal sense but failed in the common sense.
     
  20. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm partisan to reality.
     
  21. LangleyMan

    LangleyMan Well-Known Member

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    You can't know that. In fact, no one--not you, me, Mueller, Trump--can accurately assess the impact, for example, of Trump's hinting at possible pardons. Did someone take a chance on lying to Mueller's inquiry, factoring in their perception of Trump's pardon comments?
    I think your common sense test suggests Trump is probably guilty of obstruction.
     
  22. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    So we disagree. No surprise there.
     
  23. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Except for the facts you might be right.
     
  24. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You do realize two things I hope. First, no collusion after wasting millions. Second, Trump also has civil rights and free speech.
     
  25. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    You have to understand that reality is defined as two opposites when defined by politics.
     

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