New simulations suggest we may be able to reopen almost everything. But only IF...

Point it out to me where our right to assemble is absent from the Constitution. It’s the reason we are being given the right to gather to protest. I feel like a broken record at this point, but I will have to continue to make this point.

Continuing to live in fear of the virus because we are afraid we “might infect someone” is counterproductive, and takes us nowhere. It puts our society in a catatonic state, and will only do damage in the long term.

 

Are you really that surprised, though? Just look at the people proposing we stay locked down on this forum alone just because we “might infect people.” It’s a bitter pill to swallow I admit, but we must take the ugly in head on to return to normalcy to keep our country from complete financial collapse.

 

That's the thing - it is not suprising at all - in fact the reverse is true - it is relatively predictable and much of it forced at the moment

How much of someones discretionary spending goes to Travel on average - you can't Travel even if you want to. Is that person going to go out and buy 20 extra cases of beer for the week they were supposed to be traveling ? Not likely .

The main reason for decreases spending in many cases will be because someone has lost their job ! or had a big reduction in salary such as servers.

Another factor is that many who still have jobs - are uncertain about whether or not they will have the job next month - and this uncertainty will lead to a decrease in spending.

The Tusnami has not yet hit - but everyone knows "sans the mentally deficient" that at some point this economic tidal wave will hit - and that it is going to hurt.

 

#2 is just wrong - sans extreme circumstances.

The whole point of having certain rights enshrined in the constitution is so Gov't can't use some flimsy public safety excuse to take them away.

Sure there are extreme circumstances where certain freedoms can be restricted - Martial Law due to some enemy massing at the gates or some Pandemic - "for a short period of time"

Randomly discharging a firearm in shopping mall is not an essential liberty.

 

Yeah. And the course is that we avoid getting infected until a cure or a vaccine is found. Doing anything else would be... not just insane... but utter stupidity. Especially because we now know that they are the ones who keep the epidemic alive and the economy at a stand-still.

No! That is a myth. It has been completely debunked. Care should be taken with babies wearing them. But, other than that, they are completely harmless.

Of course nature doesn't work like that! If we just go by how nature acts our life expectancy would be 40 years and neo-natal mortality rate would be about 20% That's why human beings invented medicine.

I hope the fact that people not wearing masks increase the number of dead makes them sick enough that they start wearing them. If reason, logic and science doesn't work, making making people sick of hearing it may be the best alternative.

 

If you want to isolate yourself to feel safe, go ahead. Just don't force others to put their entire lives on hold for an indefinite amount of time. To go to the gym, to go out to eat, to go to a concert or worship event, you can stay home, the issue becomes when the people are told to stay home. You feel safe, I live the life I want. Everyone wins. Why do we refer to death commonly as "death by natural cause?" Because nature takes its course. We're born, live, and die. From wearing a mask at work, I can tell you something adverse is happening. I feel tired, the amount of oxygen I inhale is reduced, then the mask comes off once my shift is done, and I no longer feel tired, so I can personally speak from personal experience with these adverse effects that masks aren't good for the individual themselves,. Aside from that, what do we exhale? Carbon dioxide, and when enough carbon dioxide is breathed back in, which happens when you wear a mask, it can cause health problems from carbon dioxide poisoning that build up overtime.

And nature does work like that. It's just that medicine you mentioned is the reason we've been able to boost our life expectancy.

To say we can stay locked down until a vaccine is found is insane. It isn't the people not wearing masks like myself keeping us locked down, its the fear I commonly refer to. To suggest because you don't wear a mask means you will potentially kill someone is what is insane. You're proposing people put their lives on hold easily into 2021. Sorry, but with all due respect, that is an absolutely absurd notion. This is why I get frustrated with people who are pro-lockdown, pro-house arrest, the lack of acknowledgement of economic and mental health consequences displayed by advocating for such is what is careless here, not by not wearing a mask. Of course, if we are going by reason and logic.

 

Obviously you are not thinking critically if you ignore all the scientific information.

 

20 cases of beer could happen, if the individual is depressed enough. I've known former alcoholics who have relapsed due to the lockdown. People look for a way out when they get desperate and lonely enough. I've seen studies show the people who will be hit hardest by this lockdown are those who are single and don't/or can't have pets. Combine that with loss of a job, loss of a hobby, and you easily fall into substance abuse as your way out.

I don't think the essential workers will be going anywhere soon, particularly in retail and healthcare. Restaurant workers that do curbside pickup, maybe but people still have to have food. I think the tsunami you speak of is coming in stages. The first one hit in March, the second one will be later this summer with a third potentially in the fall as we see drops in holiday spending and travel. We aren't taking into consideration the massive tax hike people will pay next year for the stimulus checks.

 

You mean like how the WHO clarified that asymptomatic people are unlikely to infect others a couple days ago?

 

We are talking the aggregate here - not a few individuals who want to drink themselves to debt. The point was that the money not spend on Travel will not easily go to other places - and certainly not right now.

Of course essential workers will still have job - that does not mean aggregate consumer spending will not suffer - in part as a function of those who do not have jobs - and other factors mentioned previously.

The first wave took out the Shale oil industry "aka Shale oil poinzi scheme"... This kind of thing is expected as the weak are the first to fall. In addition we have had numerous bankruptcies in other sectors - retail in particular.

In the next wave we will see a massive number of small business failures. This will be in combination with a more corporations going down.

I doubt that we will see a massive tax hike any time soon as such a move would dampen any chance of economic recovery. What would a tax increase do to consumer spending ? - obviously it has a negative effect.

The effects of the Tsunami will have a large impact on the 2021 fiscal year . Keep in mind that current forecasts of a near 4 Trillion 2020 deficit can not accurately take into account how much Fed Revenue will drop. By comparison - the 2008 crash led to a Revenue decrease from 2.7 Trillion to 2.1 Trillion ( this 600 Billion was part of the 1.4 Trillion dollar deficit - Stimulus spending accounting for another 400 Billion and 400 was already baked into the cake)

"expected revenue" for 2020 was around 3.6 Trillion. This is going to take a hit. The 2021 hit to revenue will also be big - and may well be larger than 2020.

After the 2008 crash - revenue for 2009 dropped from 2.7 Trillion to 2.1. Revenue for 2010 (2.1 Trillion), 2011 (2.3 Trillion), 2012 (2.5 Trillion)

Finally in 2013 federal revenue surpassed 2.7 Trillion (2.8 Trillion).

Will we come back quicker this round ? I sure hope so - but no way that is going to happen in 2021.

 

Oh God! You have not read a single word I wrote.

What a waste of time!

 

"The word logic comes from the Ancient Greek logike, referring to the science or art of reasoning. Using logic, a person evaluates arguments and reasoning and strives to distinguish between good and bad reasoning, or between truth and falsehood. Using logic, you can evaluate the ideas and claims of others, make good decisions, and form sound beliefs about the world." Anyone who believes in Drumph is not using good reasoning, not distinguishing between truth and falsehood, and not forming sound beliefs: for God's sake, the man brazenly lies on a daily basis. No one who supports the liar in chief can possibly claim to be using critical thinking skills.

 

Your strawman does not refute any of the facts that I provided and wearing a mask does NOT equate to "living in fear".

 

The Supreme Court has UPHELD that Public Safety overrides individual rights.

https://www.law.com/newyorklawjourn...ions-in-the-time-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic/

 

Hmm was that the World Health Organisation? Are you sure? Or was that just the misinterpretation of some of the media?

 

It involved officials at the World Health Organization, so yes I am pretty confident it wasn't misinterpretation.

 

You think i believe in Trump? No, I don't but I don't subscribe to the mass hysteria being sold about the virus either. ;Even Fauci himself has lost all credibility. When you contradict yourself on the public stage, that puts your credibility into question. Example, Fauci himself said masks were ineffective in February, and then turns around and tries to backpedal by saying they are effective. One who possibly believes in good reasoning cannot take what Fauci has said for face value after the man has destroyed any credibility he started with.

 

Who knew more than a hundred years later after that ruling, it would do more harm than good? Roe vs. Wade is a example of a good Supreme Court ruling, this obviously is not.

 

I have read a single word you've said, I'm simply not saying--or typing, what you want to read. Again, if you want to isolate yourself to feel safe, go ahead but don't force your beliefs on others.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

You are entitled to your OPINION but NOT your own FACTS!

Masks REDUCE the spread of the virus and do NOT infringe on your constitutional rights.

 

I think most would agree that ruling was terrible for the very fact if allows governors to become authoritarians. That much can be agreed upon. If you need an example to back that up, one can point to how bad Cuomo has made it for the citizens of New York. People can be denied entry into a grocery store for not wearing a mask by executive order. That’s how that 1845 ruling was so toxic for civil rights, because these people have gotten away with controlling the people that elected them. That is not a mere opinion, it has been made factual by these governors actions.

Lastly, a mask itself doesn’t infringe on rights. It’s when these governors shutting everything down, confine people to their homes that infringe on the right to assemble clearly outlined in the First Amendment.

 

Did you happen to notice that this thread, the OP, and every single post I have written is about how to make it unnecessary to isolate yourself? For God's sake, it's even on the title!

So yes, you did read a single word: Golem. And from there, without reading further, you just applied the talking points that the wingnut echo-chamber pre-canned for you to make whenever you respond to anybody who is not a blind Trump loyalist.

Please don't waste my time with talking points. If you have anything to opine about what I do say, great. But Hannity, or Alex Jones, or tucker Carlson, or Rush , or... whoever your wingnut media hero is, is not here to debate. So you have to make your own strawman. Not just repeat theirs

 

You appear to have a very skewed concept of what was actually put in place for Public Safety.

The concept of the WELFARE of We the People embraces Public Safety. OUR government of We the People are NOT authoritarian just because it ensures that no one individual can INFECT others with a deadly virus.

 

1) I don't care what a corrupt kangaroo court says
2) I already stated that in certain circumstances "for a short period of time" such measures were constitutional.

So why did you post this ? To remind me of what I have already agreed to ?

What you have not done is corrected yourself.

 

Yes, I understand d that. What I have tried to do is not waste your time, but to come to terms with reality that we cannot continue to stay shut down until a vaccine is made available. It is not economically feasible, it’s not simply a talking point, it’s the reality you and I are faced with. In my replies, I have proposed a couple different solutions. Maybe you are not personally onboard with them, but they would potentially speed up the reopening efforts. I don’t try to simply parrot media talking points, and I surely don’t pay attention to what Fox is saying, but at some point, we have to come in contact with this virus head on. Play offensive, not defensive.