On the issue of Proselytizing...

A movie that comes to mind is "If The Walls Could Talk". Very preachy.

 

Yes, but it also disregards whatever belief system the recipient already has, which could be in direct opposition to theirs. And BTW, your last line, how would that work with a Mormon who still practices polygamy?

But moving back to the intent of my thread....what we are talking about thus far is fairly blatant proselytizing. One the door opens, they introduce themselves and thus you know. You have a choice to engage, or decline.

But what about those who hide their intentions of proselytizing? You know, sneaking it in with a bait and switch? You go to an event thinking it's one thing, turns out it's a "save your soul meeting". A lot of religious groups do this, but I don't think they realize how harmful it is to their cause. In many ways, I sometimes feel the same way about some of these movies. You go in thinking it's a drama, a movie that will explore some spiritual or philosophical theme, but then turns out to have a heavy handed preachy message. Does that bother you?

Many cult like groups also use this bait and switch technique. And even though I know it is beyond the scope of my OP, how does one not associate the technique with that of a cult? Both are using a form of deception to lure you in, regardless of what your intent maybe.

 

That's entirely extraneous to my point. As a general rule of thumb, religious door-knocking exists because the people believe that what they're doing is trying to save the souls of those they're preaching to - it's incredibly selfless, and if you believe that, then so what if the person you're preaching to is an atheist or whatever? That is precisely all the more reason, given their beliefs, to proselytize IF they genuinely care about other people. If someone believes that proselytizing could save the eternal souls of others, but they just say, "eh, they might not be receptive and it could be uncomfortable so I won't", maybe that'd make your day easier - but I think it clearly shows that they're selfish jerks.

I mean - that's kind of like saying you let people continue oblivious to the dangers of heroine because you might offend them by telling them it is hazardous. Isn't that actually selfish?

I think the same applies for the deceptive tactics you mentioned. They're pretty cruddy, but if you for a second consider the beliefs from the standpoint of someone who actually believes in them, then it may well be worthwhile.

The point I'm making won't really make sense if you don't take it from the standpoint of assuming their worldview to be true - my whole point is that if you put yourself in their shoes for a second, that you could help someone save their everlasting soul, then causing some offense is trivial.

 

How true. We have had more than enough vulgar conditioning.

 

Omniscient God knew long before He created A&E what their choice would be. He is omniscient, isn't He?

 

I get the feeling you probably view from a historical perspective that missionaries were a positive step in world history.

Look, I have been on the other side of that proselytizing divide, when I was much younger. It is why I feel they way I do about it. I did believe it was my mission to save their souls, but as I became older and started questioning my faith, it became clear how arrogant I was.

I use the word arrogant because if you think about it, the vast majority of people that I had approached already had pondered the fundamental questions about faith, and presenting my particular brand of Christianity (Baptist) was in essence no more valid than theirs. In essence, I was selling my particular brand.

The question for me is selling my faith on par with selling anything else? Shouldn't a faith stand on its own, in other words, sell itself?

Any honestly good salesman will tell you a sale is a journey to a halfway point. For the most part, a sale takes place in the buyer's mind, it is up to the salesman to suppress the inertia of not buying and to remind the buyer of why he wants what you are selling. Sell the sizzle, not the steak. If a buyer has no desire for your product or service, there is really nothing you can do to sell him on your product or service. The exception to this is if your buyer is distraught, not in a normal frame of mind. He is susceptible.

It's on that last point is where I see proselytizing causing the most damage.

 

You seem to still be missing my point. Don't try to add anything to what I'm saying, just take it as it is: if you assume the beliefs of these religious door knockers, that people who don't convert will go to hell and be deprived of eternal life in heaven, then what they're doing is entirely well meaning, good-intentioned, and perceived arrogance is entirely irrelevant to my point.

What you seem to be missing is the difference of motivation. A salesman wants you to buy his product so that he can get commission. What commission does an LDS door-knocker get? 20% of your soul? They don't get commission. They're saved (or at least, as I understand the theologies, they're basically set and don't need to do anything more to go to heaven). What they're doing is entirely for your benefit

once again, you seem to miss this - IF you assume for a moment their beliefs. If you do not deny their motives as genuine, it is very easy to see that what they're doing is just about the nicest thing anyone could do.

And again - intent is key. Maybe you judge actions independent of intention, but I see someone giving $100 to help someone in need as different from someone losing $100 that just slipped out of their pocket and which ends being picked up by someone in need.

 

That is a pretty big IF.

So, you automatically believe anyone who shows up at your door, or on the street, and says they're with XYZ religion, and assume they have only your best intentions in mind? Maybe where you live you have the comfort of knowing most of your neighbors, but that's a pretty dangerous recipe to follow in most major metropolitan areas.

The reality is you have no idea with any degree of certainty what their true intent is, be it the actual individual you are talking to, or the organization they belong to. How do you differentiate between a run-of-the-mill evangelical and a cult member? I have seen too many people with stated good intentions create quite a bit of havoc in people's lives.

As the old adage goes, the road to hell is built on good intentions.

 

I think you might be reading too much in to this particular type of film – mainstream with religious themes – and focusing too much on what they achieved rather than what they intended (which can be a big gap if the film simply isn’t very good).

I’d suggest the purpose of this particular film was the same as for any other mainstream film – making money. They had a successful book and so looked to make a film version of it to hook in to that same audience. In that it’s not really any different to the Harry Potter films (albeit on a smaller scale). I’d expect the film only comes across as preachy and propaganda because they film makers didn’t do a very good job, otherwise the same themes would come across in a less blatant and more palatable form.

There are different types of religious films and more generally philosophical or spiritually themed ones, all made with different purposes and different intended audiences. Some will be created as pure proselytization, some will be literally “preaching to the converted”, just an extension of the sermons in church, some will be entertainment pieces for profit (though maybe to help fund a religious organisation). None of those tend to come up in the mainstream though because there won’t be the commercial audience for them.

 

What Judaism Thinks of Missionaries
Whenever possible, whenever we were allowed to, we Jews have lived side by side with Christians, Muslims, and pagans, without causing them any trouble. We have no desire to proselytize to them; we have no desire to turn them into Jews. In fact, we have no Commandment in our religion to make any non-Jew into a Jew.

As such, Jews have no problems with people of other religions, and they shouldn't have a problem with us.

Unfortunately, many Christians do have a mandate to proselytize, and they do feel that they must proselytize to Jews and turn them into Christians.

And that is a problem.



First of all, there can be no peace if people do not accept each other for what they are. If you are unhappy with what I am, you will not be at peace. If you keep trying to change me, you will be disturbing my peace as well.

http://www.beingjewish.com/toshuv/missionaries.html


http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcon2.htm

 

So you're saying this is a conscious choice someone (director, producer) makes along the way?

What about the original author?

 

Excellent excerpt! Thanks for sharing.

It words my feelings far better than I could.

 

Making a movie from a popular book is nothing new and you answered your own question.,,,there is an audience out there. Its like asking why do blacks need movies about themselves...they already know they are black. Oh wait, they are planning a take over!!!! lol

The one or 2 Ive attempted to watch come across as cheesy and like you said 2 dimensional.

...maybe you are taking it as a sales pitch.