Prevent another Holocaust?

A Churchill quote is evidence of nothing, Churchill was a product of his time IE Anglocentric and xenophobic.

Yes statistics showing that Jews were in extreme minority within the Soviet elite means nothing, if you are a holocaust denying Jew hating propagandist.

Typical anti-Semitic ZOG conspiracy canards.

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Provide evidence that the majority of European Jews were communists.

Because he considered them life unworthy of life.

 

that is a (*)(*)(*)(*)ing lie and you know it!!!!!!!!

more than 5 million Jews in western, central, and eastern europe were Communists?????????????

disgusting and pathetic lies!!!!!

stop justifying mass murder.

 

In other words, your answer is "No, I have absolutely no idea how many Jews were killed in any given location." Attempts to hem and haw and use semicolons to make long sentences hedging possible criticism of your ignorance in this matter won't make you look knowledgeable. And given your clear lack of knowledge on the subject, why in the world are you so confident that this number you keep bringing up is accurate? Particularly in light of the fact that conventional sources are so riddled with errors that 4 million deaths originally attributed to Auschwitz have been revised downward by 2.5 million? Face, the numbers you are working with are just not that precise.

My suggestion is that you stick with what you do know, and can be clearly shown, rather than grasping after false precision. Doing this will make your position much stronger.

 

good for you. all of the tens of thousands of survivors from the camps are liars and so are their guards and so are the camp administrators and nurses and doctors, and naturally the photographs taken by camp guards. SS historians etc are all fake. We wont bother with german participants diaries, nor their testimonies in court, nor any of their confessions.

An #11 with just a hint of #2,

11. The Great Leap -- This tactic goes like this: If one piece of testimony about the Holocaust seems unreliable, then ALL testimony about the Holocaust is unreliable. If one Holocaust witness may have recanted something on the stand, then all other Holocaust witnesses are liars. If some camp prisoners did not starve to death, then NONE of them starved to death. etc. But be careful. This is a double-edged sword -- someone may use the well-documented lies of other revisionists to conclude that YOU are a liar as well.


2. Heads-I-Win-Tails-You-Lose -- Demand that all evidence for the Holocaust be proved genuine (dodging any discussion of what that proof would consist of), and also demand that all your unsubstantiated assertions be proved false. That way, you never bear any burden of proof. (originally posted by Mike Stein)

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#10. Fun With Math -- Charge the anti-revisionists with playing numbers games while engaging in them yourself. For example, argue that the "holohoaxers" have changed the estimated number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million. When it's pointed out to you that the 4 million figure was supplied by the Soviets and refers to the total number of victims, not just Jews, and has always been considered ridiculously inflated by non-Soviet historians who have never varied from the 1 million figure for Jews, just repeat that the holohaoxers have changed the number of Jews killed at Auschwitz from 4 million to 1 million and that the Holocaust is therefore a hoax. The point of this tactic, of course, is to try to make ALL the death figures questionable. If 4 million is unreliable, then 1 million is likewise unreliable, and you just keep revising the numbers downward until you reach zero, and then - poof! - no Holocaust!

 

The scary thing is that these folks deny the Holocaust so that a new Holocaust will be possible.

 

A) There are estimates for the individual death counts.

Treblinka -

In 1965, after a report by Dr. Helmut Krausnick, director of the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich, the Court of Assize in Düsseldorf concluded that the minimum number of people killed in Treblinka was 700,000.[44] In 1969, the same court, after new evidence revealed in a report by expert Dr. Wolfgang Scheffler, reassessed the number to be 900,000.[45] Franciszek Ząbecki, a Pole who worked as the traffic controller at the Treblinka station (the only surviving witness present at Treblinka through all of its operations),[46] kept a daily record of the extermination transports to Treblinka. From these records, Ząbecki estimated that no fewer than 1,200,000 people were murdered at Treblinka.[9][46]

According to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, the death toll in the gas chambers of Treblinka II (not including the deaths from forced labor in Camp I) falls in the range of 870,000 to 925,000.[11] It is somewhat difficult to assess exactly the number of those killed, but the approximate number can be established on the basis of the Höfle telegram (see next paragraph) and surviving transport documentation. Since 2010, the site is being examined with non-invasive archeological technology.[47]
Höfle Telegram
Main article: Höfle Telegram

In 2001, a copy of a decrypted telegram sent by the deputy commander of Operation Reinhard was discovered among recently declassified information in Britain.[48] The Höfle Telegram indicates 713,555 Jews killed in Treblinka up to the end of December 1942. On the basis of the telegram and additional data for 1943, Jacek Andrzej Młynarczyk estimates the minimum death toll as 780,863.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka_extermination_camp#Resistance

Belzec -

Eugeniusz Strojt, in an article in the Bulletin of the Main Commission for Investigation of the German Crimes in Poland, estimated the people murdered in Bełżec as 600,000.[citation needed] This number became widely accepted in literature. Raul Hilberg gave a figure of 550,000.[24] Y. Arad accepted 600,000[18] as minimum, and the sum in his table of Bełżec deportations exceeded 500,000.[18] J. Marszalek calculated 500,000.[citation needed] British historian Robin O'Neil once gave an estimate of about 800,000 (based on his investigations at the site).[25] Dieter Pohl and Peter Witte[26] gave estimate of 480,000 to 540,000. Michael Tregenza stated that it would have been possible to have buried up to one million victims on the site although the true death toll is probably around half of that amount.

The crucial piece of evidence in the debate was published in 2001 by Stephen Tyas and Peter Witte.[26] It was a telegram sent by Hermann Höfle, Operation Reinhard's Chief of Staff, which indicates that 434,508 Jews were killed in Bełżec through December 31, 1942. As the camp had ceased to operate for mass killings by then, this figure needs to be treated as almost absolute. After this period a sonderkommando of up to 500 people worked in the camp, disinterring the bodies and burning them. The sonderkommando was transported to Sobibor extermination camp around August 1943 and murdered on arrival.

The difference between this "low-end" figure and other estimates can be explained by the lack of exact and detailed sources on the deportations statistics. Thus, Y. Arad writes, that he had to rely, in part, on Yizkor books, which were not guaranteed to give the exact estimates of the numbers of deportees. He also had to rely on partial German railway documentation, from the numbers of trains could be gleaned. But here also assumptions had to be made about the number of persons per train.[18] Considering the vagueness of primary sources, many old scholarly estimates are not far off the mark.


Aerial photograph of Belzec camp perimeter taken in 1944 by the Luftwaffe (common with death factories after cleanup, making sure that it is safe to abandon). Known structrures are gone except for the brick-and-mortar garage and auto-shop for the SS, whose foundations still exist today (lower left). Across the fence (left), separated from the main camp, the Hiwi guards' accomodations with kitchen as well as sorting and packing yard for victims posessions. Dismantled barracks can still be seen surrounded by walking sand. The railway unloading platform with two parallel ramps, marked with red arrow. A smaller arrow shows the holding pen for Jews still waiting to be processed. Location of gass chambers marked with a cross. Undressing and hair-cropping area marked with rectangle with fenced-out "Sluice" into the woods, obstructing the view of the surroundings. Cremation pyres and ash pits (yellow), upper half.

It should also be noted that it is not completely clear whether the Jews who died in transit are included in the final sum. Considering the aim of compiling such a statistic (which was to know the overall number of the victims of the "Final Solution"—Hoefle's numbers were used in Korherr Report) they probably were included. Also, the sources like Westermann's report[27] contain the exact data about the number of deported persons, but only estimates of the numbers of those who died in transit, the fact which also hints that they were included in the final sum, because it would be hard for the authorities in Bełżec to learn the exact number of those murdered, excluding the dead in transport.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belzec_extermination_camp#Death_toll

Chelmno - At least 152,000 people (Bohn) were killed in the camp.[1] Due to German efforts to destroy their wartime records, the estimates in the early postwar period based on a statistical approach also ought to be taken into consideration; these include a total of 340,000 victims estimated by GKBZNwP.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chełmn...r_of_Jews_from_the_.C5.81.C3.B3d.C5.BA_ghetto

Sobibor - One source states that up to 200,000 people were murdered at Sobibór.[3] Sobibór survivor Thomas Blatt later wrote that "In the Hagen court proceedings against former Sobibór Nazis, Professor Wolfgang Scheffler, who served as an expert, estimated the total figure of murdered Jews at a minimum of 250,000."[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobibor_extermination_camp#Aftermath

Majdanek - The Soviets initially overestimated the number of deaths, claiming in July 1944 that there were no fewer than 400,000 Jewish victims, and the official Soviet count was of 1.5 million victims of different nationalities,[24] Independent Canadian journalist Raymond Arthur Davies, who was based in Moscow and on the payroll of the Canadian Jewish Congress,[25][26] visited Majdanek on August 28, 1944. The following day he sent a telegram to Saul Hayes, the executive director of the Canadian Jewish Congress. It states: "I do wish [to] stress that Majdanek where one million Jews and half a million others [were] killed"[25] and "You can tell America that at least three million [Polish] Jews [were] killed of whom at least a third were killed in Majdanek"[25] though this estimate was never taken seriously by scholars.

In 1961, Raul Hilberg estimated the number of the Jewish victims at 50,000, though at the time other sources, including the camp museum, officially estimated 100,000 Jewish victims and up to 200,000 non-Jews killed.[1]

In 1992, Czesław Rajca published a lower estimate of 235,000; it was displayed at the camp museum.[1]

The 2005 research by the Head of Scientific Department at Majdanek Museum, historian Tomasz Kranz indicates that there were 79,000 victims, 59,000 of whom were Jews.[1][8]

The differences in estimates stem from different methods used for estimating and the amounts of evidence available to the researchers. The Soviet figures relied on the most crude methodology, also used to make early Auschwitz estimates—it was assumed that the number of victims more or less corresponded to the crematoria capacities. Later researchers tried to take much more evidence into account, using records of deportations and population censuses, as well as the Nazis' own records. Hilberg's 1961 estimate, using these records, aligns closely with Kranz's report.

The well-preserved original ovens in the second Crematorium at Majdanek were built in 1943 by Heinrich Kori. They replaced the ovens brought to Majdanek from Sachsenhausen concentration camp in 1942.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majdanek_concentration_camp#Death_toll

Auschwitz -

The exact number of victims at Auschwitz is impossible to fix with certainty. Since the Nazis destroyed a number of records, immediate efforts to count the dead depended on the testimony of witnesses and the defendants on trial at Nuremberg. While under interrogation Rudolf Höss, commandant of Auschwitz concentration camp from 1940 to 1943, said that Adolf Eichmann told him that two and a half million Jews had been killed in gas chambers and about half a million had died "naturally". Later he wrote "I regard two and a half million far too high. Even Auschwitz had limits to its destructive possibilities".[85]

Communist Polish and Soviet authorities maintained a figure "between 2.5 and 4 million",[86] and the Auschwitz State Museum itself displayed a figure of 4 million killed, but "[f]ew (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure".[87] Raul Hilberg's 1961 work The Destruction of the European Jews estimated the number killed at 1,000,000, and Gerald Reitlinger's 1968 book The Final Solution described the Soviet figures as "ridiculous", and estimated the number killed at "800,000 to 900,000".[87]

In 1983, French scholar George Wellers was one of the first to use German data on deportations to estimate the number killed at Auschwitz, arriving at 1.613 million dead, including 1.44 million Jews and 146,000 Poles.[88] A larger study started later by Franciszek Piper used timetables of train arrivals combined with deportation records to calculate 960,000 Jewish deaths and 140,000–150,000 ethnic Polish victims, along with 23,000 Roma and Sinti,[89] a figure that has met with significant agreement from other scholars.[90]

After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque at Auschwitz State Museum was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of the Nizkor Project:

Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead ... Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure.[87]

Antoni Dobrowolski, the oldest known survivor of Auschwitz, passed away at the age of 108 on 21 October 2012. He died in the northwestern Polish town of Dębno, according to Jarosław Mensfelt, a spokesman at the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum.[91]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll

B) You asked how those numbers were obtained and I told you IE analyzing tens of thousands of Nazi documents in order to for example find records of the departures to the camps and then subtracting the number of survivors from that number.

C) The Soviet figure of 4 million was never taken seriously and was not factored into the appx. 5-6 million total dead.

[Continued]

Holocaust deniers would have people believe that the Auschwitz State Museum's death toll of four million was a widely accepted idea, and that any revisions in this number should also lower the total dead from the Holocaust. Deniers often claim that this revision is largely due to the efforts of "revisionist scholars", and then use this as evidence that the stories of mass murder at Auschwitz are a hoax.

Deniers also claim that anyone who dared to question the four million figure was "labeled an Anti-Semite, neo-nazi skinhead (at the very least)." By accusing their opponents of slander, deniers can simultaneously tarnish the reputations of real historians, and also invoke a "conspiracy" thatsuppresses "the truth." Conspiracy theorizing is another common denier approach, and they use it to explain why their "startling facts" have been ignored for so long. Deniers almost always overstate the "Four Million Variant,"as they would like to portray Holocaust historians as a repressive, Jewish dominated cadre that rigidly enforces the "dogma" of four million dead at Auschwitz.

As is often the case, our "revisionist scholars" have things more than a little askew. "The Four Million Variant" is the fallacious notion that a change in the Auschwitz Museum's figure pokes a major hole in mainstream Holocaust history. Taking each aspect of the "Four Million Variant" individually shows just how wrongheaded this notion is:

"The four million figure at Auschwitz was a widely held notion."

This is clearly false. In a quick survey of nineteen historical references (see appendix) only two listed the total Auschwitz dead at four million [7], [8] One of these, Friedman's "This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp," was published in 1946, well before morereliable estimates were available. Most list figures from 1 to 2.5 million, and they arrived at these figures in a variety of methods .

Some quoted Kommandant Höss's testimony (2.5 million) and others attempted to piece together how many people arrived at Auschwitz, minus any survivors, while still others used available pre- and post war census data. In fact, to find many sources that do list four million dead, one has to find books published behind the iron curtain (see appendix).

Other authors derided the Tribunal's four million figure as an absurd example of Soviet propaganda.[9],[10] For example, Gerald Reitlinger's The Final Solution discussed the source of the State Museum's figure and why he found it ludicrous:

...The Red Army did not arrive [at Auschwitz] till January 26th. They found 2,819 invalids in the three camps, whom they spared no pains to nurse back to health. In due course a Soviet State Commission arrived and on May 12th the world was presented with its findings.

However, using rectified coefficients for the part time employment of the crematorium ovens and for the periods when they stood empty, the technical expert.commission has ascertained that during the time that the Auschwitz camp existed, the German butchers [sic] exterminated in this camp not less than four million citizens of the U.S.S.R., Poland, France, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Rumania, Hungary, Holland, Belgium, and other countries.'

The world has grown mistrustful of 'rectified coefficients' and the figure of four million has become ridiculous. Unfortunately, Russian arithmetic has blurred the stark and inescapable fact that 800,000 to 900,000 human beings perished in Auschwitz, its gas chambers and its camps. There are probably too many incalculable factors to make a closer estimate of the number of Auschwitz victims possible...[11]

Reitlinger's book was published in 1968, well before the deniers claim the figure fell into disfavor, and twenty years before "revisionist scholars" began challenging the figure.

Another issue is the denier notion that anyone who dared to stray from the "Four Million" was labeled an anti-Semite and then hounded into submission by some mainstream historians, the media, or Jews. This soon becomes a laughable idea once one sees the wide-ranging estimates in the mainstream literature. If no one dared question the Soviet Commission's "four million," one must wonder why Reitlinger would be so bold as to call it "ridiculous," and also why so few historians believed that figure.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/four-million-02.html

D) If you want more information as to the exact methodology behind the estimates for the individual camps you can follow the citations provided in the wikipedia article and check those books out of your local library, but as I already explained to you they come primarily from census analysis and the study of thousands of Nazi documents.

 

Of all the deaths in that war, can you point out any other civilian group/ethnicity/nationality besides jews,roms, gays, mental handicapped that were specifically targetted by a government who deliberately attempted their extermination?

Its not that people do not acknowledge the deaths and each country I am sure pays homage to their fallen.

The attempted extermination of the jews, the unbelievable de-humanization, their millennia of persecution and their transnational ethnicity all coalesced into an event of such depravity that it shall for ever be remembered as measure of the depths to which ordinary humans can sink.

 

1/3 of our worldwide population was destroyed and 2/3rds of our European population was destroyed.

you think we should just brush it off, shrug our shoulders, and ignore it?

 

Right. You couldn't have given this to me straightforwardly the first or even second time I asked. No, you had to post this gigantic, boring wall of text after I told you forget it, I don't believe you know what you're talking about. I'm not going to read it. It's time for me to go meditate now.

 

I am not surprised you missed the entire point.

 

Actually, Alfalfa, I think you miss the point. If someone launched a successful campaign to kill a third of the population of the USA in the space of a few years, I believe Americans would be severely and permanently traumatised. Look at the impact of 9/11, and that was only a little over 2,000 American deaths, yet we now continue a War on Terror against radical Islamists and Islamofascists.

 

[video=youtube;8XSj9XgXA5Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XSj9XgXA5Q[/video]

 

I have found that most denialists employ evasive tactics when confronted with actual facts.

That boring wall of text you aren't even going to read contains all kinds of irrefutable facts. Denialists can't handle those, so they have to either discredit all the facts, ignore them, or run away.

something to meditate on for sure.

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your point wasn't accurate to begin with.

 

I wonder why the Nazis supplied all of that if the intention was to kill them all, seems a bit odd.

 

Jews don't like being told they weren't the only ones who suffered in WWII.

 

Yes, but we don't force every one else to build "911 memorials" in their countries and claim American deaths due to islamic extremism are more important then their own.

 

I believe the word you were looking for was "persuade" rather than "force"; I haven't heard of any Jews highjacking legislatures or indulging in terrorism in order to get Holocaust memorials built. As for 911 memorials, it would be a good idea if we did persuade some of our allies to build a permanent reminder of why the true face of Islamofacism shouldn't be forgotten. It would have been a lot easier if we had done that prior to the massive mistake of the Iraq War, when there was a lot of sympathy out there for the USA.

 

Nonsense. Guess you don't know any jews.

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/search_results.asp?cx=005038866121755566658%3Auch7z5rmfgs&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=gypsies&find=&siteurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yadvashem.org%2F


search results for "gypsies" 82,000, homosexual 303,000, handicapped 68,000.


http://www.ushmm.org/
USHMM search results 1390 matches on "gypsies", 874 on homosexuals, 198 on gays, 498 on disabled.

Seems odd for the two largest holocaust museums to mention all the other targets of hitler's genocidal insanity so frequently, if jews don't acknowledge the "rest of the story".

Might want to rethink that little dishonest observation.

 

In the "Introduction to the Holocaust" at the USHMM website this is the first paragraph...

Yes, they follow up with saying "German authorities targeted other groups", but they weren't important to enough include in the primary paragraph (top billing) of the sites description of the Holocaust. Let's review that. 12 million slavs died at the hands of the nazis in either the concentration camps or by mass murder. 3 million Soviet prisoners of war although the total number of all POW deaths go as high as 5 million. 2 million non Jewish ethnic poles, 1.5 million ethnic Romani. Another million of various other groups, the disabled, Slovenes, freemasons, homosexuals, Jehovah;s Wintess, etc.

25 million non Jews died in nazi death camps. I'm not trying to minimize nor trivialize the suffering of the Jewish people during the holocaust, which was tremendous and significant, only to mention that there were a whole lot of other peoples who suffered the same fates. But if you were to go up to 100 people and ask them what one word comes to mind when you mention "holocaust", you would get 100 people saying "Jews", even though 12 million slavs were killed as well, not to mention 25 million Russians deaths during WWII. Hell, 20 million Chinese died.

Weird, huh?

 

What? Are you trying to be serious?
Why don't we just all start saying that 500 trillion people were gassed by Hitler personally?

This is insane. We've established through out the course of this thread that six million Jews weren't even killed OR targeted for extermination. Now, on page 20, you want to increase it up to 25 million? It's amazing how people just get to say whatever they want in regards to German concentration camps. I think I'm going to become a professional holocaust survivor.

 

Internment camps have been around for centuries before Stalin, but the term 'concentration camp' was first coined by the British during the Boer Wars, when the Brits interned prisoner Boers.

 

We prevent "this" (genocide, of any unpopular group) by refusing to surrender a single civil liberty to ANYONE.

That means refusing to allow the NSA to know every detail of our lives, refusing to let the IRS steal money to give to the UN/lazy people/murder clinics, and refusing to let cops violate a single natural right.

Freedom is the end-all to every argument, and being armed is the sole physical protection of freedom.

 

I dunno, it looks to me that Alfalfa said NON - Jews. How you read that to mean "Jews" is astonishing.

And Denialists wonder why no one takes them seriously. *shrugs*

 

The "Genocide of the Jews" BS is barely tolerable.

Millions of Christians - thousands of which were targeted pastors and Catholic priests - were killed by the Nazi regime.

And something else that irks me: The US have the gall to pretend that we have a better track record than Germany...

 

do you know what a "non-Jew" is?

its a person who is NOT a Jew.

reading is fundamental.