Project Gunrunner (Fast & Furious) Part II

I didn't refer to the NRA or GOA as the MSM. I'm talking about CBS, as in the article I posted earlier.

Not to you anyway. I'm not gullible. I just read between the lines, and connect the dots.

It's obvious you do not want this to be a scandal.

I'm very patriotic. That is why I despise this Administration so much. They will do everything in their power to blow this off.

 

Guns were sold to drug cartels. They were done in secret from people who would have stopped this operation. That by default is a conspiracy.

 

Some facts that can be added to this.

Fast and Furious was the follow-on to a Bush admistration program that did exactly the same thing with the same results. Firearms were transfered to Mexican drug cartels by the US government under both Republican and Democratic presidents but it started with a Republican president.

Considering that the predominate crime problem in Mexico is related to the prohibitions against drugs by the United States we can draw the logical conclusion that the United States is responsible for most of the crime in Mexico. End the War on Drugs and it ends most Mexican criminal activities.

 

This is false.

Operation Wide Receiver was much different then Fast and Furious. They are not "exactly the same thing" For one, wide receiver was not gun walking. It was controlled delivery. ATF agents physically tracked the guns in question and the goal was for Mexican authorities to recover them once they crossed the border. Another major difference is that Wide Receiver included the involvement of Mexican authorities.

Fast and furious, on the other hand, was the uncontrolled sale of firearms to straw purchasers with no means or provision to control the transfer of these firearms. Also, this was done without the knowledge of Mexican authorities.

Even Holder, during Senate interrogation, was quick to admit that the two were not something he was willing to equate.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/282606/fast-furious-was-bushs-fault-andrew-c-mccarthy

 

A conspiracy that left hundreds of people dead, including two U.S. Federal Agents, and those involved at the top levels were promoted, while the whistleblowers were being harassed.

 

I find little difference between the two different operations. Both resulted in guns being purchased under ATF authority, tranported to Mexico and then lost. In neither case were any high level drug cartel members indicted or apprehended. Admittedly Fast and Furious lost more guns but the precedent of allowing illegal gun purchases and then allowing them to be transferred into Mexico where they were immediately lost occurred.

While Wide Receiver might have had Mexican authorities involved in the planning their involvement was non-existant once the guns entered into Mexico.

 

Then let me help you find it.

Wide receiver worked like this:

A licensed dealer (Detty) went to the ATF and notified them of a purchase that he suspected was a straw purchase. The ATF then employed Detty, and installed surveillance equipment in his store. They knew exactly who had purchased the firearms. They notified and kept in contact with Mexican authorities. They monitored future purchases, followed the purchasers to the border and handed off the investigation to the Mexican authorities. A total of 450 guns were sold through Detty and I have found little data on how many were recovered vs how many were "lost" by Mexican authorities once they crossed the border. The operation was stopped once it was evident how terrible the Mexican authorities had been in recovering the guns on their side.

What's different here is that wide receiver's goal was to follow the guns through the distribution system on the Mexican side. They could track and did track the straw purchaser to the border and expected the Mexican authorities to track the straw purchaser (and by extention the firearm) in order to find out who was actually buying these guns, and who they were giving them to.

Fast and furious had no such intent. Fast and furious did not track the straw purchasers. Fast and furious did not involve Mexican authorities. They allowed the purchase to take place in the hopes that the guns would simply turn up somewhere, presumably after the guns had been used in a crime.

 

But CBS didn't claim, as you did, that the intent of "F & F was ... to be used to enact more gun regulations". This begs the question how the MSM could be catching onto (you stated: "The media can finally see this") something that they don't even acknowledge? It appears you have arrived at your conclusions by shear will-power.

Thank you for admitting that you did not use critical thinking to arrive at your preconceived conclusion. What you described above is clearly not an example of critical thought.

Your own bias that has pushed you to this unfounded conclusion does not automatically say anything about my own wants as to this. This is pure deflection.

Nonsense. You contended at the very beginning of your thread that the President was guilty in this, without a shred of evidence showing any validity to your charge. It is very clear form your posts here that you have a vendetta against this sitting President with little or no regard for valid facts. Your OP incredibly stated:

This is just another way in which Obama displays his disdain for the United States, and why many, many Americans question his origins, faith, and patriotism.
​

Amazing how you claim to be patriotic while questioning our own President's "origins, faith, and patriotism".

This thread and your posts say far more about YOU than they do about our current administration.

 

Please show me where the US agents sold guns to drug cartels? If that's not what you're saying then please clarify. Keep in mind that this so-called conspiracy needs to have some sort of illegal acts that were allegedly covered-up, no?

What do you have? Anything?

 

I'm sorry; this is just apologist propaganda and nothing more.

Wide Receiver was a small operation (miniscule compared to F&F) where the Mexican authorities were included in the planning and were supposed to assist the tracking of the weapons. The weapons themselves had tracking devices implanted in them, and efforts were made to prevent their loss. The operation failed, but to compare Fast and Furious to Wide Receiver is nonsense; to say nothing of intellectually dishonest. Fast and Furious was a sham from the outset, with the Mexican authorities left completely in the dark, no attempt to track the weapons once they crossed the border, and obvious malfeasance on the part of the ATF that was clearly and purposefully trying to flood Mexico with illegal weapons to pad the crime stats and give the Obama administration justification to push for more restrictive gun control.

The fact that the gun controllers in this country now try to rationalize things like this clearly shows that to them the end justifies the means, and there is nothing wrong with "cracking a few eggs" (killing people) to facilitate their dream of a gun-free America.

 

I have found no such attempt by anti-gun advocates. What we have seen is a general opposition to the US government becoming involved in promoting illegal gun purchases that provide guns to drug cartels.

What is curious to me is that Fast and Furious even occurred after Wide Reciever was shut down. This was done by the Arizona AFT soon after Obama took office and he probably wasn't briefed on the operation. I doubt that even the head of ATF was briefed on it. It seems to be the rogue actions of one local ATF office where evidence had previously demonstrated that these types of "sting" operations simply don't work. If there was a difference between Fast and Furious and Wide Receiver it would be that the first really was a "sting" operation related to a person already violating the law and an "entrapment" operation that attempted to induce individuals into violating the law. Instead of enforcing the law the ATF used dangerous methods in propagating more violations of the law.

Once agian if we want to end the violence from drug cartels the best approach is to decriminalize drugs so that they are regulated under the law. Prohibition removes any regulation of drugs which creates the crimes related to illegal drug trafficing. We learned this during alcohol prohibition and it's amazing that we didn't learn our lesson from that.

 

I know this is a topic for a different thread, but how can you regulate the sale of a chemical that always causes permanent physical damage to the user? As long as the seller is liable for the actions of the customer, there will always be a black market.

 

In this you and I are in complete agreement.

 

Caffeine causes permanent physical damage to the user if consumed in excessive amounts but it's legal and regulated. Cocaine and heroin are also relatively harmless when used in "reasonable" amounts and cause no serious or permanent physical damage. Drug abuse of any substance, including alcohol, can generally lead to serious and permanent physical damage and in some cases can lead to death (which is very permanent).

This is really a silly argument because regulation does provide a means of control of potentially harmful substances. Prohibition fails to provide any means to control the potentially harmful effects.

I don't see this as being really off topic because the primary problem being address by Fast and Furious was drug cartels that would not exist if drugs were decriminalized and regulated in the United States.

 

Hysterical conspiracies are rife here.

 

Sure, CBS didn't say the original intent was to enact more gun control, but they are seeing that is what it turned out to be. Just a refresher for your convenience:

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations:

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

Source

They are under Obama's control, one way or another. Obama knew more than you think:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBIWSyoe6vA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBIWSyoe6vA[/ame]

 

Don't play stupid. Many of these gun sales would not have occurred had it not been for U.S. ATF Agents telling the gun retailers to go ahead with the questionable sales. If the retailers went ahead with the sales with no ATF involvement, then they would be breaking the law, hence committing illegal activity.

 

No law enforcement agency can override statutory criminal law. The gun dealers are still breaking the law and all the AFT does is indemnify them against prosecution but the law is still being violated.

This is really a bad precedent and should be stopped. The only way I know how to stop it is to start prosecuting law enforcement officers that attempt to direct or influence a citizen to violate the criminal statutes.

 

Talk to Eric Holder about that.

 

Eric Holder is not the only one as this problem of law enforcement selectively ignoring criminal law for nefarious purposes has become a part of "law enforcement" at all levels from the very top of our federal government to our local police departments, prosecutors and judges. We see it in every sting operation and everytime a person is given immunity from prosecution.

 

Ayuh,... The Most damaging drug used in America today is Alcohol...

 

Absolutely true.

And when we look at addictive drugs the one with the most mild, moderate or severe dependency is.... not tobacco... (that many would think of)... but instead caffeine.

Estimates go as high as 100 million Americans having a caffeine addiction that is either minor, moderate or severe. How many of us just have to have that cup of coffee or a can of Coke in the morning to get us going? That is an addiction to a drug and for severe addicts, like my second wife, she actually went through severe withdrawal symptoms when she tried to kick a Coca-Cola addiction.

 

Pron addiction

 

Sure, but YOUR argument from the beginning has been that the INTENT of this operation was to enact new gun laws AND that the President was complicit in this. You have manufactured these conspiracies out of whole cloth without a shred of evidence to support them.

Really? Do you actually look at your sources? All this does is show that the President saw the developments on TV and instructed an investigation into it.

How does your video even come CLOSE to verifying your wild charge that:

"This is just another way in which Obama displays his disdain for the United States, and why many, many Americans question his origins, faith, and patriotism."
​

????

 

It's nice of you to reply to a post that I directed to the other member. I noticed that he wasn't able to answer my questions to him. Apparently, he understands more clearly than you do as to what I was actually asking him. He had stated, in effect that the ATF had directly sold these guns to traffickers. This is false as you well know and should not be used as a premise in any reasoned argument about this issue.

Secondly, this member had jumped in here in support of your false conclusion as to the purpose of 'Fast & Furious', and I was trying to get him to show me his evidence that swayed him other than blind chanted slogans, of course. His continued silence on this fairly convincingly shows us that his position is similar to your own, in that his position is based solely on emotional bias rather than calm reason.