Proof that Illegals Are Not Taking Jobs From Americans...Thread II

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/0...want-farm-work

Despite economy, Americans don't want farm work

It's a question rekindled by the recession: Are immigrants taking jobs away from American citizens? In the heart of the nation's biggest farming state, the answer is a resounding no.

Government data analyzed by The Associated Press show most Americans simply don't apply to harvest fruits and vegetables. And the few Americans who do usually don't stay in the fields.

The AP analysis showed that, from January to June, California farmers posted ads for 1,160 farmworker positions open to U.S. citizens and legal residents. But only 233 people in those categories applied after learning of the jobs through unemployment offices in California, Texas, Nevada and Arizona.

One grower brought on 36. No one else hired any.

Sometimes, U.S. workers also will turn down the jobs because they don't want their unemployment insurance claims to be affected, or because farm labor positions do not begin for several months, and applicants prefer to be hired immediately, Ruelas said.

But he did not get any takers, even though he followed the requirements of a little-known, little-used program to bring in foreign farmworkers the legal way — by applying for guest worker visas.

The majority of farmers rely on illegal labor to harvest their crops, but they can also use the little-known H-2A visa to hire guest workers, as long as they request the workers months in advance of the harvest season and can show that no Americans want the job.

Of the estimated 40,900 full-time farmers and ranchers in California, just 34, including Fortin, petitioned to bring in foreign farmworkers on the visas, according to government data for the first eight months of the year.

More than half of farmworkers in the United States are illegal immigrants, the Labor Department says. Proponents of tougher immigration laws — as well as the United Farm Workers of America — say farmers are used to a cheap, largely undocumented work force, and if growers raised wages and improved working conditions, the jobs would attract Americans.

The UFW in June launched the "Take Our Jobs Campaign," inviting people to go online and apply. About 8,600 people filled out an application form, but only seven have been placed in farm jobs, UFW President Arturo Rodriguez said.

Some U.S. workers referred for jobs at Fortin's nursery couldn't do the grueling work."

"Recruitment of U.S. workers in this program doesn't work well primarily because employers have already identified who they want to bring in from abroad," Martin said. "I don't think a lot of U.S. workers are going out there looking for a seasonal job paying the minimum wage or a dollar more."

"I've been working in agriculture for 22 years, and I can tell you there are very few gringos out here," said Reynosa, 49, of Orange Cove, about 30 miles east of Fresno. "If people know English, they go to work in packinghouses or sit in an office."


OMOF: Why is this so difficult to accept?? Why don't we just admit that we are too spoiled and soft to do this type of work? This entire 'illegals are taking my job' discussion is 100% political BS...

 

American citizens are the laziest workers in the world. The laziest used to be Soviet workers before the change, but now it's us.

 

Americans will do these jobs. The problem is related to a sudden lack of illegal farm labor in some places where states are cracking down. Places where illegal labor has been the norm for a long time. It's a temporary logistical issue. Temp agencies and unemployment centers need to recruit more aggressively from the legal labor force to fill these positions... and the positions will be filled. Innovative machinery could be implemented.

This whole argument that Americans are too lazy to do these jobs is mere propaganda. This isn't about farmers, or the cost of produce... this is simply a tool used by the 'multicults', La Raza et al, race baiting politicians, and greedy pigs who are willing to sell out their nation/countrymen for profit.

If we were able to deport the vast majority of illegals here in the states, we could free up more jobs than Obama's jobs bill could ever hope to create... not to mention the advantage of easing the pressure on our fragile and overburdened social programs.

Arguing that we should import an underclass of people to do our 'undesirable' labor is a (*)(*)(*)(*) poor argument anyways. First, it's a terrible attitude to have... in that it creates the perception that we're incapable of performing labor, and that we need 'lesser' people to do it for us. Secondly, it will do nothing to solve our immigration problem... it will only draw more illegal immigrants, it will lead to more 'anchor births'... which simply compounds the immigration problem.

 

Farmers don't want to hire citizens. I know grape farmers here in California, and grape growing is skilled compared to tomato picking. Those guys come for the season, when it's done they take their $16,000 for the 4 months, and go back to Mexico. When they're here, they stay in the ranch housing, and stay low.

The guy I know tried hiring college kids, or kids on summer vacation, or semi homeless types...but they were flakes, druggies, lazy, and in some cases all of the above.

What will happen if they make the job a livable wage job, and start sending OSHA in there, the stores will buy Mexican and Chilean produce. Then the American farmers will shut down....but you'll be rid of illegals, and we'll just have to add one more thing to the list of things Americans don't make anymore.

 

Too bad, they'll just have to adapt to change.

That's more than some natural born citizens make in a year. That's also a ton of money leaving our economy.

Sounds like he should keep trying. I know from personal experience that Americans will do these jobs, I've been doing some of the worse jobs a guy can have since I've been of legal working age, and the people I've worked with have been overwhelmingly White, and Black in proportion that's probably close to their respective population.

I still do temp jobs when business gets slow... and trust me, these are not desirable jobs... it's the same crap I was doing before striking out on my own. I've labled one of the facilities I work at as 'Satans Gym'. When sent to this particular place, I stack 50 lbs bags on pallets all night long. Two 15min breaks, half hr lunch... 7hrs of 50lbs bags. The worst night I had there involved stacking 18 tons by myself (1/ton per pallet). Obviously, this is reality for guys who work there full time... they're mostly White, some Blacks, and a few Latinos.

I'm not really sure that it'd have to be a livable wage job... as I said earlier $16k is more than the 'worst off' make in a year. You know... for $16k over the span of 4 months, I'd be willing to travel. That sounds like an opportunity to me.

 

Outside of some mexican communities living on our side of the border, I dont see how illegals are taking our jobs.

All I see is us giving our jobs to them......

Thats the real problem.

 

Those that can't adapt, don't survive.

The people I know who would be capable of farm labor jobs in the 105 degree summer days out here are few. It takes an emotionally disciplined person.

Last year...we had the local farmers try to hire workers through Manpower as temps, all of those people lasted less than one week.

I've done hard jobs too. I was a scaffolder for a few years, and I spent a summer picking tomatos, and I've had scrapper and construction jobs.

I'm going to guess we might agree on one point...there is work to be done, and in an economy like this...there is no excuse for it NOT being done by citizens.

If anything, those on welfare or unemployment should have to subsidize thier benefits with four hours of farm work/day. That way the farmer gets cheap labor, and the beneficiaries have 4 more hours to look for jobs. The excercize will do them good!

 

Yes, I fully agree.

I could certainly support something like this. It seems though, that when things of this nature are mentioned people try to equate it with modern day slavery, or argue that there could be conflict of interest. But surely things could be structured in a fair way.

 

I have a young lady friend that just went down to Florida to work on an organic farm.

 

I would think people will be happier if they work, if they earn their keep...kind of a sense of pride. It's good for our mental and physical attributes. But obviously lots of people appear happier doing the opposite. I don't particularly look forward to hard work but once I get into it...I feel great!

 

Nicely stated but I'll disagree on one issue about if wages were increased; I still don't believe Americans are going to work 8-10 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week when necessary, in the sun and cold weather, etc. no matter what the pay scale might be. I personally have great respect for farm workers, legal or illegal, because in their own niche they do have skills, they work hard, show up every day, and are happy people.

 

I keep saying throughout this thread, including part I, that if so-called Americans competed for these jobs, the illegals will go away. Since Americans refuse to do this type of work, someone else will fill the void! You are correct...this could not be more simple...

 

I actually know people who have quit their jobs to take unemployment because their wages were about equal to unemployment. So in all of these cases, we have Americans sucking off the government yet providing zero productivity. Why should our governments at all levels be paying hourly wages for unskilled and lower-skilled workers, when people on government support could perform many of these jobs? Somewhere here on PF I started a thread about this; people on government support providing something in return. Too many people, IMO, have simply lost their sense of pride...

 

I'm right there with you.

I don't think it's generational or even cultural, but I can't stand to feel like I'm not pulling my own weight, and a little more. The time I was out of work for a few months was emotionally and spiritually devaststing for me. I had to go to a Xmas dinner/family reunion, and when people asked what I've been doing (and they usually did it with a quizzical smile on thier faces because I'm always doing something interesting)...I had to tell people over and over again "I'm looking for work"....

It's just out of the scope of reality for me to think anyone can be remotely happy being on the dole, and if anyone does think it's cool being on welfare or unemployment, I'd argue they're not being honest with themselves.

 

Do you realize that in the US, the average worker has the LOWEST amount of vacation days, and the MOST worked hours per week, of any 1st world nation in the world? And relative to the worlds combined GDP (not our own currency and standard of living), even the "working poor" work harder and longer hours, and sustain a modicum of wealth (or standard of living) that is greater than 99% of any 2nd or 3rd world country? In places like Germany, people get a minimum of 6 weeks vacation every year, and NO ONE works 6 days a week (a very common practice in the states, if not 5 12 hour days). They take 2 hour siestas in foreign countries. They get 6 months maternity leave. Many workers are required to take long sabbaticals after so many years of work in order to refresh and get back into gear.

Educating every American (as well as we have, despite school problems) has a negative result in that people don't want migrant jobs and won't do migrant labor. If I has a choice to work a boring desk job at $12 an hour answering phones or submitting data on a computer over doing 8 hours of HARD labor in a 100 degree field with my bare hands, I'd use those basic skills I learned in school to avoid killing myself physically. Now, if that job paid $20 an hour, I might reconsider (I make much more than that consequently).

Learn about the working conditions in other nations and their work obligations before making such a foolish comment. The US works really (*)(*)(*)(*) hard at most things. We just tend to be picky about which jobs we'll take and which we won't. Its all the more reason to allow an amnestied class of unskilled, unqualified people that would be willing to do that type of labor. In their own countries, jobs like that would be a luxury. For us, its a luxury to not have to do them at all.

 

Been there done that and I'm hardly from Mexico. Cut welfare and unemployment bennies and people will be lining up to work on those farms.

 

The Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese all have longer workdays, and less vacation than Americans...or so I'm told.

I can see how measuring "how long" we work is easy...but how does one quantify "how hard" someone works?

I couldn't agree less.

In the 1980's, I worked closely with the Japanese both here and in Japan.

In the late 1980's, I lived in China for one year, and actually stayed for extended periods of time on a farm commune outside Wuxi.

From 2000-2004 I worked in Istanbul.

In all of those countries...people worked longer and harder, and for less, than Americans do. Except in Turkey, the retirement age is 55.

What countries have you lived in that have workers who work so much less and not "as hard" as Americans?

 

I did read the OP, but I know it's shortsighted propaganda.

The problem that has occurred in some states due to the lack of illegal labor, is temporary and simply a result of a sudden change. The farmers are used to having illegal labor, and the legal laborers in these areas are not used to farm work. This is how it's been for years and years. It's not that Americans won't do this work, it's that things are geared towards illegal labor... has been for a long time... and that will have to change.

As I said earlier in the thread, I've had some of the worst jobs you can have (and still do when business is slow), and the people I've worked with have been overwhelmingly natural born Whites and Blacks. There is nothing special about illegal immigrants... other than they're willing to work for less (because they have not choice), they are great pawns for the multicult nutters, and make a decent (D) voter bloc.

Besides, it's not as if illegals only occupy jobs that are undesirable, or jobs that "Americans won't do":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

We had a meat processing plant come to town several years ago. Entry level positions start at close to $13/hr... which is a livable wage in this region. These are jobs that local citizens want, but not only do they have to compete with the revolving door of illegal immigrants, but also a ton of immigrants which have been recruited by the company from Africa and parts of Asia. It doesn't make any sense.

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/files/pdf/Putting Americans Back to Work(2).pdf

7.7 million illegal workers in 2008!

So, seeing that illegal immigrants occupy a large number of jobs (all of which could be done by natural born citizens), cost tax payers a ton of money, and send a ton of money out of our economy, it's easy to see how much better off we'd be without them.

 

Too many people feel helpless. They simply don't know what to do or are unwilling to make the effort. I've written many times that something as simple as geography forces unemployment and government funding...because in any given location there simply are not enough jobs to go around. And public transportation is severely lacking. And the millions who are unskilled or lower-skilled won't earn enough to justify the expenses in order to hold a job.

For whatever reason, it seems to me that some workers, for example legal and illegal immigrants, will migrate to where the jobs are located, will figure out how to get to work every day, and will accept the lower wages which are determined by the skill-set and supply and demand of labor.

Like I always say on this issue; if Americans truly wanted these jobs held by illegals and green cards, Americans would get out and compete for them...

 

Not to denigrate in any way illegals or green cards...but what can possibly be the reason why so-called Americans cannot compete for these jobs? Why is it Americans can't beat out an illegal or green card, most of which have little command of the English language? It's obvious from this thread that many Americans hate the illegals, believe the illegals are taking the jobs, yet these same Americans won't go out and compete for these jobs?

Well, it's all political BS and xenophobia IMO.

 

If they ever lined up as you say, most farmers for example will not put up with their poor work performance in those challenging work conditions. Like any job for any amount of pay, those who perform the best will hold the jobs!