If you're claiming the entire Old Testament is null and void, you're wrong. Every Christian church in the world still pays attention to the Old Testament. Go to church on Sunday, and you typically get a reading from both the Old and the New. The problem is that it's not entirely clear what parts of the Old Testament are overridden by the New, and which aren't. There's the general concept that Jesus brought a new relationship with God, but what does that mean in practice? God didn't disown Isaiah just because Jesus came to town. As a result, many believers pick and choose from the Old Testament in order to support their own particular beliefs/ideology. Which is how you can get conservative Christians quoting one Leviticus verse, while ignoring the 10 surrounding Leviticus verses. Heck, the entire opposition to evolution from the dumb-ass wing of Christianity is based on Genesis, not the New Testament. Gay marriage, same thing. New Testament has hardly anything to say about gays. Which is why anti-gay religious groups quote the Old Testament. That said, the New Testament has plenty of violence, if you want to read it literally. Matthew 3:10-12: The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Jesus speaks violence, too: Matthew 10:34: Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a mans enemies will be the members of his own household.' Similarly, Luke 12:49: "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. And then there's Revelations, which depicts what will happen when Jesus returns -- and it's a bloodbath. Now, you can say those passages shouldn't be taken literally (though I'm not clear on how you explain away Revelations), and that's fine -- but that's my point. You can't insist that the Quran be read literally, while insisting that the Bible not.
The West has always been aware of the Islamic world. For heavens sake it fought them for long enough in various countries down the centuries. Where have I said I prefer Shariah law over Western law? There are aspects of Shariah law we could do well to follow in the West. Perhaps the threat of losing a hand would deter some thieves. Have you read the Constitutions and the rights afforded to their citizens? Of course Shariah Law is not recognised by Canadian law, but it is still practised in many ways. You really should read up a bit. As I said, the reason why technology was given to drill for oil was Western need for it. Of course they want money. Just remember how the nations of the West invaded and plundered many countries of the world down the centuries. For what? The riches they had to offer. That's how the West was able to modernise. The West has no reason to be proud of its actions. Nor do you have reason to condemn the Arab desire for riches. So, you acknowledge our Technology comes down from the ancients, in some cases modernising their crude ways. You're right. Ancient Egypt and other contemporary civilisations had their own technology. Archimedes Screw is a device that drew water from low areas into higher areas - powered then by hand. A modern version - powered by electricity - is still in use today. I am not a supporter of Islam, and never will be - but not everything Islamic is bad. It is making the same mistakes as Christianity made for 1500 years. Forcing its followers to follow and not question. Which is a pity. They might find the basis for their beliefs, such as the Patriarchs never existed, and could then get on with each other. That's it.
Sure -- Mohammad lived during violent times. And besides founding a religion, he was a general and political leader -- two complications Jesus never had to deal with. But that's the history part of the Quran. What about the philosophy part? Because so much of both books deal in trivialities -- such as the laws of the tribe -- rather than the actual stated principles of the belief. And further, every holy book needs to be looked at in two contexts: 1. What was the message of the book relative to the time it was produced? Jesus, for instance, never crusaded against slavery -- it was just a fact of life in Roman times. Does that mean slavery is okay? No. Similarly, you have to look at the Quran and judge it and Mohammad by the times they lived in. Judging the stories by modern standards doesn't make sense. 2. How is the book interpreted today? As I mentioned above, Christians have somehow managed to overlook all the violent, intolerant, and ethically questionable parts of the Bible, for the most part. The existence of those passages isn't what's important -- what's important is how Christians interpret them today. Most Muslims, for instance, interpret much of the battle and struggle imagery in the Quran as a philosophical struggle -- the daily internal struggle to be a good Muslim. In that regard, it's no different from Christians who say we're all sinners and must constantly be on guard against sinning further. I've read chunks of the Quran, as well as papers on the tenets and principles of Islam. As a religion, Islam is fairly generic. It's not very different from Christianity or Hinduism or Judaism in terms of its broad philosophy. Followers of all major religions are basically exhorted to live good, moral, upright lives, pray a lot, help the needy and don't be dicks. All major religions, likewise, have been used to justify both good and evil, pretty much regardless of what you might consider the main tenets of those religions. Hindu, Jewish, Christian and Muslim extremists are pretty much all the same, from where I sit.
1. The West started to pay attention sometime in the late 1000's when it was clear and apparent that Islamic warlords and militarism were cleansing the entire Middle East and committing brutal atrocities. 2. There are many aspects of democratic laws that can make Muslims countries a better and freer society as long as they separate Mosque and State. Decapitating hands, feet or head are old and barbaric punishment that has no place in modern society. 3. Islamic constitution affords no freedom that is why thousands of Muslims are encouraging and asking for Western support to help them to topple their updated and oppressive governments. 4. When it comes to plundering and invasion Islam top it all. 5. The West is proud of our history and actions that is why we continue to support Muslims in their struggle for true democracy. 6. You are correct Islam uses force to force followers to stay within Islam and punish them if Muslims dare to leave Islam or none Muslims dare to share the truth, freedom, education and knowledge.
The Quran is chalk full of pasages like this which direct believers to kill nonbelievers. 23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. 24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith
Algebra is an Arabic word. Our numerals are Arabic numerals. Algorithm is a westernization of the name of a prominent Arabic scientist. Galen's medical works were incorporated in the ME and evaporated from western thought. They finally made it to the western world through the medical works of Avicenna, a Persian philosopher. These were studied by western medical students into the 19th century!
Give me one good reason why I should not read the Quran literally. Modern believers are wrong. I read both of them literally. Bukhari and Muslim are accepted by a vast majority of Muslims, but there is some debate over the other hadiths. Are you suggesting that Jesus did not live in violent times? That is irrelevant. Religious law is supposed to be eternal. Slavery is supported by the Old Testament and is not condemned in the New Testament. Therefore, slavery is permissible. Like I said, religious law is supposed to be eternal. It's not supposed to change with the times. That is irrelevant.
1. The West didn't start to pay attention. The RC Church did. It controlled the West, rather like Islam does now. 2. So what is your answer for an habitual thief? A life sentence? 3, Islamic constitutions offering many benefits to their citizens. Pity you don't read them. Yes they want to topple governments that oppress. The problem is that the government, if it is lead by the Shia sect, is suppressing the Sunni's - and vice versa. So if you topple the Shia the Sunnis take over and oppress the Shia. The West cannot win in the Middle East. Russia is helping Assad who is a tyrant. The Russians are not just killing IS troops, they are killing the people who have been oppressed by Assad, and in doing so, destroying cities and civilians - men, women and children. Assad is an 'Alawite' - part of the Shia sect and has brutally suppressed any opposition by the Sunnis. Saddam Hussein was a Sunni - and he oppressed the Shia minority. Now do you get it. The problem in the Middle East is RELIGION. Just as it was in the Medieval West. The greatest plunderers of all time were Western countries. England, Spain, Portugal, France who plundered South America, West Indies, Africa, India and anywhere else they set foot. 5. How on earth you can say the West should be proud of its history is beyond me. You really should read up on European history. Come to that you should read up on everything. 6. Y And it is only following in the footsteps of the Church who used so many forms of torture to keep its followers faithful. But I notice you don't mention that. You know little about the Middle East except what you want read and want to believe, leaving the rest out.
Well, then, you're foolish. As your own statements demonstrate. And you're also in an impossible situation. If you believe the Bible is literal truth, then please square the two different versions of what happens when the women go to Jesus' tomb.
You do know that Christians and Jews were not "nonbelievers"... and pagans were also to be left in peace unless they attacked Muslims.
Quran 9:30 "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!" Quran 9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
But it also has passages that preach mercy and compassion for nonbelievers. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/394/rights-of-non-muslims-in-islam-part-11/ https://islamqa.info/en/26721 The Quran, like EVERY holy book I've ever read, is chock full of contradictions like that. They are then resolved by theological scholarship -- which is basically intellectual hoop jumping, trying to avoid admitting there's a contradiction. Bible. Quran and Hadiths. The Talmud and Torah. All filled with internal contradictions. In Islam, as in Christianity, the unpleasant verses tend to get defined away in favor of the pleasant verses. So in Islamic scholarship you'll see a lot of explanations that a particular command to do something nasty was only valid for a particular battle or war, so it no longer applies at all -- it is merely a historical record.
Same arguments can be made about Christianity and what happened in the Bible, but who really wants to bring that stuff up? Oooppppsss.....
1. The RC was instrumental to called upon the West to pay attention on the imminent threat of Islam and they responded and since then the West has been successful in putting a stop to Islamic radicalism sadly Muslims were not able to stop or defeat Islamic radicalism. 2. Decapitating hands, feet or head of habitual thieves is barbaric and have no place in a civilized modern society. Yes, prison and rehabilitation is better to Islamic law that calls for a thief to be handicap or blinded. 3. Russia is supporting the Syrian government against radical Islam. The US is supporting Muslims fighting against radical Islam. 4. Radical Islam were and are still the greatest plunders in history. 5. How on earth you hate the west so much that you can not share your agnostic or atheist concept in Muslim lands really confused me. Western history is truly that we should be proud of from barbarism, dark ages to modernization and continue to advance. 6. I don't need to mention the mistakes of the church which the church has openly confesses to. But you and Muslims have never admit their atrocities against the human race they blame us for their problems. 7. The Church has the most extensive records of history that has been use by scholars and scientist as blueprint to modernization.
And the West preserved all those to expand and advance them to modern science, modern medicine and modern technology by Western scientist.
Yes. The west had their dark ages for about a thousand years while science flourished in the ME and for a a hundred or two hundred years the west has been leading. Note that Islam ruled during scientific advancement in the ME, and that religion in the west has expended effort in subduing science even TODAY!!! My main point here is that there isn't some sort biological difference here. And, one can not blame it on religion, either. For the last couple hundred years at least we've gone through a period of major upheaval in the ME. It shouldn't be too surprising that science was set back during the violent repression and turmoil of that period. Also, note that even with the horrors in the ME right now (and the destruction of education) there are noted Arab and Persian scientists doing amazing things in various parts of the world. My brother had his aorta replaced from his heart into his legs by a surgeon who graduated from Baghdad Medical School - a major credit to the hospital complex in Houston. We need to recognize the scientific setback in the ME as one of the horrendous costs of war and repression of which WE are at least some part.
Arabs can only romanticized their past glory when once upon a time they were more advance than the West the West would pick up the good about Arab science and leave behind the no good radical Islam for that the West was able to modernized algebra into astro-physics, trigonometry, geometry, nuclear science, discover cure for polio, leprosy, tuberculosis and many other deceases sadly the Arabs allowed radical Islam to take over their country push their civilization back to ancient times. The main set back of Middle East scientific modernization was and is mainly due to the huge control of radical Islam in Arab and Muslim society.
You see what I mean. Because I tell you the truth about the Middle East, about how much of the trouble has arisen, and the internicine war etc that is part of the problem, you class me as an Islamic sympathiser. I am English, my ancestors date back to the 12th century in England. I have never been an Islamic sympathiser. I simply point out to you your twisted view of the world and the supposed superiority of Western culture. It has been the greatest plunderer of other countries wealth in all history. If you care to study history you will see that even Islam has been limited to the Middle East. The West has plundered most continents and bee the cause of many atrocities. I suggest you withdraw that statement. I have never been, nor intend going, to Muslim lands. You're easily confused. You obviously have no perspective of the world as it really is, just your own view so I wish you good luck.
Christians follow the new testament and all that eye for an eye stuff is replaced with turn the other cheek and thou shalt not kill
