Revelation 2:9-10.. Is Revelation about the future or the past?

I am sorry to hear about your cousin. Prayers go out to you.

I am also sorry to hear about your crisis in faith. It has also always turned me off in terms of "Christians" trying to determine who is "saved" and who is not. It seems to me that on one level they are elevating their own position while scoffing at their counterparts. All I know is many will be surprised, count on that!!

Jesus certainly did not take such a self righteous attitude. Why should the Christian?

 

My heart goes out to both you and your cuz. Suscide is a tough thing to understand. I have lost a few friends over the decades like that.

Greek scripture? Must be Orthodox Christians?

What about Islam? Or Hinduism? Or paganism? Just curious..

Well a real Christian would not allow the harming of anyone. We may not agree with the secular worlds beliefs and methods, however that said a true Christian would know how to interpret the bible ie they would realize the new testament supersedes the old testament and the brutal treatment of Gays and other favorite targets of 'false prophet Christian' preachers is not allowed per scripture (of Jesus Christ). Instead of running over a homeless person to be the first to get to a all you can eat buffet with their benze, a real Christian would be on skid row helping the addicted, homeless, and ministering to the sick old and other disadvantaged people. The body AND soul needs to receive love and warmth. While I am on a rant I will say a good christian would not be sitting in Joel Osteen 'rich is ok' church a wearing a 3k dollar suit feeling good about taking more than they need. That said I bet you REALLY hate Islam eh? The rMuslinms will behead you for doing far less than something a Christian would simply find distasteful. I love moderate Islam but rIslam is satantic IMO.

Again that depends what your definition of God is. The Christian God loves us and wants a relationship with us. God has emotions somewhat like a human. However a deist would think more like you. Deists believe god created the universe then left it alone to run on autopilot.

reva

 

What I don't understand is why people just don't read the Bible themselves to determine what the faith is all about. If you have a problem with Jesus, he is not for you.

 

faith is not hard to understand

and the bible says, to follow the rules and await.

basic

no one is arguing with Jesus.

It is the morons that read of jesus, hold a book and claim, 'jesus saves' and then lie cheat and steal, all the while using jesus' name, that sicken people.


Most hate the 2 faced.

 

We all know what Jesus said regarding hypocrites. Therefore, those that are not shown a Christian example probably think it is not possible to live. However, I've known people like this and is probably responsible for my conversion. That is why Christ was so hard on hypocrites.

The issue here is who is Jesus? Ironically, his disciples had the same question. Jesus asked them who they thought he was. Some said John the Baptist, some say a great prophet, but it was Peter who said he was the Son of God. Jesus said that the Father had revealed this to him and to tell no one at that time.

So the question continues I suppose. Who is this person called Jesus Christ?

 

All dates I give are AD unless I write them as BC.

 

EXCERPT;

I did not comment some material becasue I was giving WOG time to respond. However that done I do have some questions; Where do you get the 40% figure? I would agree that some comment is political in nature but not very much. Can you ID which books or verse is political fraudulent propaganda? Much of what is written by any civilization is political in nature. Some articles may be embellishment or the author may take excessive artistic license but not much is totally false for the same reason most political editorials etc in contemporary newspapers are not without facts. If the news sources produce too much fluff they are the national enquirer not USA today.

Lastly the bible (means collection of texts) is a collection of 66 books written over a long period. These books are categorized by Genre which include distinct categories ie History or Narrative, Law, Wisdom Poetry, Prophecy, Apocalyptic, Apocalyptic, Epistle and last and least as far as I am concerned; Romance. Each of those genres have content related to their title. So you see there are many categories written in different periods of time each having their own relevance etc which makes it difficult in the extreme to make a blanket statement of the bible, even of any BOOK of the bible! That’s why when a bigot makes a comment like the bible is a fairy tale or myth I arbitrarily reject such comments as literally ignorant, or the writer expressing a covert agenda rather than productive debate. I take issue with a couple of other statements in your post but this is getting too long....

reva

 

Speaking of which...

---

Anyway, Revelation is about the war with Rome. Revelation 12 makes it abundantly clear - it starts out with an interesting version of the Nativity, then proceeds to talk about the "beast," who was in fact the Roman emperor. People like to think the Bible is great, powerful and mysterious, but in reality it's just a collection of primitive religious writings that can be very easily broken down and understood in their historical context..

 

EXCERPT;

Ok heh, I wanted to make sure. And I was being somewhat devious but not for malicious reasons. I call my date clarification request a a kind of straw-professor request or question, lol. Its used by professors to test basic knowledge of a subject, with all due respect you didn’t do so well! The ‘abbreviation’s ; (B.C.E.) Before the Common Era and (C.E.) the Common Era, are exactly the same as B.C. and A.D. and are used to remove the reference to Christianity to make atheist professors and other haters happy.

Ok, I stand by my rebuttal (below). Note that I said in my orginal post that there is often extreme difference of opinion concerning the date Revelation was written. This disagreement is among secular and spiritural experts in the field of Archeology and anthropology which includes paleographers, codicologists and Assyriologypapyrologists. (what a title!~). BTW, those (above) are fields of study I originally wanted to do, however like differential calculus they were too difficult for me. We should remember not all dates are disputed nor is all bible historical reference is disputed. The new testament is lauded as the best example of ancient documents that are accurate ie non-corrupted.

reva

 

How so?

reva

 

Because it was the end of the old law.

Rev 21:22

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

I think Revelation has a dual meaning in some areas (the first three chapters). One is describing Johns daily events AND future events. Even though the NT is wrtitten in Greek, Hebrew authors of the OT had a method of writing inserting a dual meaning in a sentence. Also, I being an 'futurist' that considers most of revelation to be apocalyptic writings would interpret Revelations in that context. There are four accepted ways to interpret revelation; idealist, preterist, historicist, futurist. Your Hermetic place you in the preterist camp even if you are an atheist. So we will agree to disagree. Time will tell who is correct and who is wrong I suppose.

There is nothing mysterious about the bible according to Christians. However, sadly atheists etc may think the bible simple, false, mythical, or mysterious etc because of selective (at times) misinterpertion or hate of Christianity and its bible. Many seculars simply do not understand it and have a poor knowledge of even basic theology. So I just state my beleifs and attempt to ignore the worst of them.

Yes that is the view of many seculars. However there are about a million to one disagreement raito ie spirtural vs atheist ideas of reality. I sisply can not understand how someone can choose that nothing exists instead of God or at least an ID exists. Additionally again a good portion of those that hold that view do not have a basic working knowledge of the bible so how can they make an intellegent assesment out of igorance?

Those that do hold a good working knowledge of the bible simply have chosen their paradigm for their own reasons. If an (illogical IMO) atheist paradigm works for them and they have already been exposed to the good word I say with remorse; cut them loose post haste. Why should Christians waste time on a corpse, spiritually speaking, when there are those in the world starved for the good news? They have rejected God and so they have bought a one way ticket not to a burning hell, rather a one way ticket to the grave which means the death of the soul*. It's called Sheol, literally the grave.

God bless you Durandal (or not lol) and I hope you will reconsider your veiws about the bible etc ASAP~

reva

 

Hi Margot. There was no 'end' of the old Mosaic law*. Jesus clarified the old law and placed ten of them on a pedestal of supersedeence’ of the old law .. kinda'.. Of course his death changed a lot of the old laws because after his sacrifice one could be saved by grace rather than strict adherence to the 600+ laws of Moses. That is why we as Christians can be forgiven by repentance of our sins and the love of God.

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-1.

this scripture confuses some I will clarify as needed.

reva

 

Much of Jewish law was to prevent them from assimilating and becoming like their neighbors.

That and the myriad purification rituals.

Jesus taught that it wouldn't be the Kingdom of the Jewish Laws, but the Kingdom of God.

Jesus did fulfill the law. The fig would no longer bear fruit.

 

if your beliefs suggests he can walk on water and no one else can, is a lie.

sure he did

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men

did you just make jesus a liar?

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


He sure aint me!

 

that is what is coming.

the religions and the 2 faced that use them, will be gone.

 

we knows bigots plowed the olive fields of palestine
but did you see:

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.





If that didnt happen, then jesus didnt fulfill


The 12 are from the 4 colors of mankind, 3 from each to combine, representing mankind and the name of the boss is revealed.

no temple

as god is existence itself and we are its children.


the name, unveils


and as much as i love what wisdom the old teachers (jesus too) shared, please keep in mind, it aint jesus that lies to people about what is real.

It is them selfish sobs that continue to false witness, when within bible....... it's basically all there as to what to expect.

 

I think this is a metaphor for a shining New Jerusalem...

 

shinning?

turned to glass, perhaps


no one opens up shop but one

the stories of the 'new' are all over the world

...........................a central place in the Kalachakra teachings. Shambhala (Tib. bde 'byung) is a Sanskrit term meaning place of peace/tranquility/happiness. Shakyamuni Buddha is said to have taught the Kalachakra tantra on request of King Suchandra, also the teachings are said to be preserved there. Shambhala is said to be a society where all the inhabitants are enlightened, centered around a capital city called Kalapa. War and injustice are said to be unknown there, and it is said to be peopled by beautiful women and men dwelling in magnificent abodes.

Shambhala is ruled over by the Kulika or Kalki (Tib. Ridgen) King, a benevolent monarch who upholds the integrity of the Kalachakra tantra. Religious scholars believe that this figure developed out of the myth of the Hindu conqueror Kalki, a similar personage. The Kalachakra prophesizes that when the world declines into war and greed, and all is lost, the twenty fifty Kalika king will emerge from Shambhala with a huge army to vanquish the corrupt world rulers and usher in a worldwide Golden Age. Some scholars put this date at 2424 AD.

As with many concepts in Vajrayana Buddhism, the idea of Shambhala is said to have an 'outer,' 'inner,' and 'secret' meaning. The outer meaning understands Shambhala to exist as a physical place, although only individuals with the appropriate karma can reach it and experience it as such. There are various ideas about where this society is located, but it is often placed in central Asia, north of Tibet. The inner and secret meanings refer to more subtle understandings of what Shambhala represents, and are generally passed on orally.



rev 22: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

 

I meant a New Jerusalem that SHINES.. Its not to be considered a REAL city but a state of being... figuratively.

 

now you talking my language.

ie.... to know truth is living in what is real


i do that sheet all the time.

life: purposed to continue

or how about, the pinnacle of evolution is existence comprehending itself


ie... 'we' are 'IT' defining itself with our very creations; words


It is weird, because i read metaphors from all over the world and it is almost as if i wrote them in many cases.

I have a habit of combining many terms and phrases to remove ambiguity, as soon as understood. Once understood, the concepts can become 'common sense'.

I like understanding what is real, while alive!




.

 

I want to comment on something in this reply, then I will get back on topic in my next post. After I criticized some of you all' for posting short vague rebuttals and replies, it occurred to me that I did the extreme opposite to not just to the members here but to everyone on the net I debate! Actually the replies in this thread aint' too bad, most of the replies are good. BTW, my comments are not about only this thread, but all my replies etc. in PF.....Ok that said, now another long post lol..;

I will admit that often my replies are way too long and detailed. That is the teacher, preacher in me. I cant stand quips or short incomplete replies etc. from students (when I summer school taught or when I guest preach. Teach. Really though long posts are better than short ones because In the long run a short or incomplete reply makes the debate even longer.

In addition who wants to write a short thread that few understand or a too short reply that is misunderstood so many times that most of us forget what the original point was and waste pages and pages of asking to clarify etc ? Lol...its madding at times. If I mention my education I am accused of bragging etc (by the Usual Suspects most commonly) Actually I mention my credentials etc to give my debate partner a heads up, a advantage so he can reply in any level he wishes and doesn’t have to Google for information or simplify their reply. I wish more members would mention their ed level so I would know how to tailor my response. etc. that I didn't include.

Of course if I am ignorant in a subject, and I am totally iggy in many subjects, I say so , hoping my partner will do as I do and lay it out for me in simple terms. I don't like Googling technical subjects or terms in order not to look stupid or make mistakes! Lastly English is my second language, French is my first, and I did not learn English alongside French, I learned it after. Yes its a long story, oui? Lol....> Hey this post is way to long……………ha ha eh?

Reva

 

I am not sure how much emphasis you are putting on the word ’much’ (Jewish law), or if the law you refer to is the oral or written law (there are both) and they are used in conjunction with each something similar to old and new testament being mutually dependent. So, I agree that even the torah forbids intermarrying between a Jew and non Jew. Some examples; From the Torah "You shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughter to his son, and you shall not take his daughter for your son".(1*)

Then its written in Prophets; "And that we shall not give our daughters to the peoples of the land, and we shall not take their daughters for our sons."(2**)

As a nod to your comment on Jewish Law there is this; "The Torah forbids a Jew to enter a marital relationship with a non-Jew; be it a Jewish man to a non-Jewish women, or a Jewish woman to a non-Jewish man".(3.***).

However I do not feel comfortable to say the law was primarily to prevent intermarriage or making babies for purposes of assimilation of two groups etc.

Notes

1*. Deuteronomy 7:3
2**. Nehemiah 10:31
3**. Maimonidies laws of ForbiddenRelationships
12:1

The way I interpret (Hermeneutics) would not fit any genre perfectly but would fit Dispensational Premillennialism most closely. So my view on Jewish purification rituals described in the bible and are (were) used primarily by Jewish priests will be retained, including a sacrifice of a blemish free red Heffier whos ashes will be used to purify the prophesied 3rd temple. The third temple?

Yes the prophesied third temple. Since the Islamic Dome Of The Rock was built on TOP the destroyed (2nd) Christian/Jewish temple rubble in 691 AD, and arguably being the most holy site in Islam the temple has not yet be rebuilt it would necessitate the demolition of the dome of the rock. In other words Israel destroying Islam’s most holy site would cause WW3 aka Armageddon. Not too good! If interested learning more you might want to Google or search these keywords; ‘the red Heifer ‘bible‘, or click the link below;

THE RED HEIFER
www.greatdreams.com/sacred/red-heifer.htm - Cached - Similar Feb 14, 2004 ... According to Jewish sources no flawless red heifer has been born in Israel since the fall of Jerusalem in A. D. 70."

reva

 

Read Nehemiah.. after the Babylonian exile.. That's when Jewish men were forbidden to marry foreign wives.. .. and it was the beginning of the Diaspora.

I doubt there will ever be another Temple.. Revelation 21: 22 seems to confirm that.

 

Read Nehemiah.. after the Babylonian exile.. That's when Jewish men were forbidden to marry foreign wives.. .. and it was the beginning of the Diaspora.

I doubt there will ever be another Temple.. Revelation 21: 22 seems to confirm that.