Revisiting The Waco Massacre...

The dogs wewre killed after the fire fight began. The lying sack of crap who testifies at about 48:35 says that the ATF shot the dogs right of the bat is covering his own sorry butt. You can hear the dogs at about 48:54, long after the exchange of gunfire had begun.

They were a potential hazard to further police operations.

I don't know if you know much about malutes, but they are not something I would want running about a crime scene being a hazard to law enforcement people. Territorial and capable of tearing a man to shreds.

Got proof? I have inhaled a lot of CS and have been within 15 feet of a few flash-bangs. The only harm that I suffered fromm either was a bit of tinitus from the flash-bangs.

 

Hydrogen Cyanide Poisoning from Inhalation of Smoke Produced in Fires

The dangerous hydrogen cyanide fumes can be given off even after the fire is out but the material is still smoldering. Very mild cases might be shrugged off as a headache, but concentrations of a couple of hundred parts per million in air can kill within a few minutes.

Antidotes are available which are effective if administrated quickly, but the wrong diagnosis can also result in death. It is important to recognize the difference between hydrogen cyanide and carbon monoxide poisoning.

The Providence Journal carried an article [see http://www.firerescue1.com/print.asp?act=print&vid=102408 ] about a 50-year-old firefighter who had collapsed while fighting two house fires in Providence R.I. on 24 March 2006. Fortunately, the correct diagnosis of cyanide poisoning was made at the local hospital, and the firefighter was given the correct antidote.

Common man-made materials which generate cyanide gas during combustion include nylon, polyurethane, melamine, and acrylonitrile. These materials are present everywhere in building furnishings and our vehicles, foam insulation, furniture, carpets, draperies, appliances, many plastics, and articles of clothing.

http://www.aristatek.com/newsletter/0604April/TechSpeak.aspx

When CS is metabolized, cyanide can be detected in human tissue.[10] According to the United States Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine, CS emits "very toxic fumes" when heated to decomposition, and at specified concentrations CS gas is an immediate danger to life and health. They also state that those exposed to CS gas should seek medical attention immediately.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

Internal F.B.I. documents disclosed today by a Democratic lawmaker show that information about the use of combustible tear-gas canisters at the 1993 Branch Davidian siege near Waco, Tex., has sat in the Justice Department's files for years and was even sent to Congress no later than 1995. http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/14/u...aco-reported-in-95.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


Since they lied about what sort of action they took, maybe they used other gases besides CS.

 

No. Koresh intended to kill those who could be witnesses against him at the rape trials, along with himself, rather than surrender. There is no proof that the sorry sack of crap intended anything else.

 

leftysergeant has no respect for real American law, where no one is guitly on mere suspicion and no one is attacked on mere suspicion.

The law he, Janet Reno, and the rest of shoot'em up gunmen attacking in Waco are using is the Noahide law passed by Bush the first and Congress 105 STAT. 44 PUBLIC LAW 102-14-MAR. 20,1991
Public Law 102-14
102d Congress
Joint Resolution.

Under these Noahide laws, most people can be convicted & sentenced to death with only 1 witness.

Evidently, this is what happened at WACO. They had already convicted him based on the testimony of some Rabbi.

That is one reason for their violent mad bull attack. They already decided there was no need for due process, as it had been abolished.

That's probably why a bunch of cowards, the US Congress, voted for the Patriot Act and associated rules without even reading them........; And under those acts anyone can be killed just as at WACO with ZERO "due" process.

According to Moses, 2 or 3 witnesses, faithful to the Truth are required to convict of a crime. But as Jesus said, to the Pharisees, "You don't believe in Moses." (John 5:46)

Perhaps that is why the sergeant has his own "truth"....

One thing that hasn't been discussed regarding the intent of the attacks is the obvious bumping off of the 3 guys who were body guards of Clinton.....and perhaps knew too much.

It is pretty obvious, the 3 go in the window, then the 4th guy throws in a grenade and shoot into the 3. There was some return fire, but obviously they didn't make it, or if they did, they were finished off later.

 

Care to show me that? I have never seen that in the FLIR tapes i have been shown. I see some crap that idiots who do not understand FLIR think are people shooting into the compound, but none of that footage shows any such thing to an old soldier who has seen how FLIR works.

Not in any way that rises even to the mildest violation committed by Bush the Lesser and his merry morons. None of what they did could in itself cause injury.

Got evidence?

 

They had due process. They ATF had a warrant and the kiddy-fiddler refused to abide by it. He was, from that point forward, a criminal in commission of a felony and his illegal militia, called the Mighty Men, were criminal accomplices. They were legally obligated to stand down. The ATF and FBI were under no obligation to concede any point with the nasty little thugs.

What on earth are you maundering about?

But then, maybe you should start a separate thread for that delusion. This one is already clogged with stupid.

 

No. They did know that it is usual for a hostage-taker to kill the hostages if he loses it and does not think there is a chance that he will win. Only those few who have normal human compassion under some cicumstances are amenable to logical persuasion. That maggot Koresh had no such compassion.

There were no snipers waiting to kill people trying to escape.

There is no evidence that the maggot had any intention of surrendering ever.

They did not machine gun the children. I have never seen clear footage of full-auto fire from the Federal officers at any point.

There is no evidence that they killed anyone trying to escape.

Right. The problem was the kiddy-diddling nutjob who convinced them that he was a higher authority than society as a whole.

And we have a right to expect dirtbags like Koresh to allow our agents to inspect the compound, with proper legal warrants, when it is suspected that the religious fanatics there are planning some sort of insurrection.

 

Just as well you can't find it. It's crap.

Nobody who knows what they are talking about or who does not support a terrorist aggenda had any part in it.

 

Thanks for posting that pile of compost. It proves that none of the people claiming that the Federal people started the fire have a bleeding clue.

That grenade at 3:12 still has the spoon inplace. This tells me that the religious whackjobs had grenades and that they used them in starting the fires in the building.

Picture this. You have just sprinkled gasoline over a couple of rooms. Your plan is to throw a flash-bang or gas grenade into each to ignite the gas. You get gasoline on your hands. You pop the ring on a gas grenade. It ignites the gasoline on your hands and that sprinkled about the room. You die right there, in exquisite pain, and do not have time to even pull the pin on the second grenade. I am making sense to everyone with any knowledge of grenades and an IQ over 90.

Now, let us move on to 3:28, where it is stated that such devices were found at various points inside the building, like the chapel and dining room. The Feds did not have access to these areas to discharge such hand-held devices. Inside job. Full stop.

Moving on to 4:20 we have some stupid sack of fail saying that we have automatic weapons fire right next to a burning wooden structure where the temperature would have been somewhere near 300F. Trouble is, it appears in exactly the same place, for several minutes, even though we have some dortbag on the documentary tape telling us that the shooters are firing and retreating. A white line is seen at the same place at 4:38

No freaking way. Who is that dork making these brain-dead statements? He's a total punk, outside his area of competency.

And what is the bit with that jerk Bell saying, at 6:30 that bodies were no longer useful for forensic purposes if they have decomposede a bit? Dude, bullets don't need refrigeration.

Now, let's move to 8:18, when the fuel tank cooks off. There is no way you need an explosive charge nearby to ignite that. "Leaking" before the blast? Don't make me laugh. There is only a small burst of localized flame, such as you might see around a vent, before there is a total deflagration of all the gas released at once. Had there been a leak prior to the cook-off, that spot of flame would have been much broader.

Now, to address that terrorist-loving piece of crap Partin, how does that moron think that agents could have gotten inside the compound to set charges on top of that vault before the fire without gettin g shot, or during the fire without getting cooked medium well?

Partin talks through his trousers a lot. This is a psychopath who expects us to believe that McVeigh did not do the Murrah Building. He is part of a Christo-fascist movement. The government really aught to look into clawing back that sorry dirtbag's pension, since he has clearly gone over to a domestic enemy.

Maybe somebody would like to explain to me how an unshaped charge big enough to blow a round hole in a concrete roof would not have been audible to any reporter anywhere between Waco proper and the compound. Maybe that terrorist sympathizer sorry excuse for a general could explain how a shaped charge would have left the rebar in place. Sorry, dude. Partin is a lying sack of crap.

As for those rifle-launched CS grenades, the one that we are shown is still covered in white paint.

Really, dudes? A discharged pyrotechnic round still has white paint everywhere on it? Srsly?

Wanna buy a toll bridge in Mahattan?

 

Leftysergeant: "Vote Republican. It's easier than thinking."
Still trying to figure out "Hope and Change", right? Slogans that require no thought are necessary for the pitiful leftists. Now, Leftesergeat, "Lean Forward".

Oh, I see socialists con men are still trying to sell bridges.

Waco was a terrible disaster that was mismanaged by the government from the start. It was worse than Ruby Ridge for scale but nothing else. The government did nothing right and the problems should have been avoided. Only the government could see Jonesville and learn nothing.

 

Jones and Koresh thought the same way. Better to die at the top of your game, rather than to be cursed by the dimwits who followed you to their death. Once Koresh refused the search warrant, it was clear that he intended nobody to leavce the compound alive.

Think about what you are saying for a change.

 

Kinda hard to accept a search warrant, when masked man storm your house with guns a blazin.

Think about what you're saying for a change.

 

Didn't happen. The kiddy-diddler slammed the door in their faces, then opened fire when they tried to get inby force.

 

It is interesting that the warrant was served at the compound based on this:

In other words, they had no proof of anything illegal, just an opinion of ATF investigator David Aguilera of something they could do. This happened just before congressional review of their budget and the warrant was served by ATF agents, accompanied by several members of the media.

Rolland Ballestros, one of the agents assigned to the ATF door team that assaulted the front door, told Texas Rangers and Waco police that he thought the first shots came from the ATF dog team assigned to neutralize the Davidians’ dogs, but later at the trial he insisted that the Davidians had shot first. (Ballestros was not called by the government in the later trials.) The Davidians claimed that the ATF door team then opened fire at the door and they returned fire in self-defense.

 

They had a search warrant for the premises, as well as, an arrest warrant for David Koresh for possession of an unregistered destructive device. They could have done the same as all great law enforcement prevaricators everywhere do each day: lie and tell him to come in because they need to ask him a question.

 

Ya, it didn't happen that way at all. But, feel free to let your imagination run wild.

 

Ivan, to the elites and their many tiers, why not?

Seriously.

If another tentacle of the octopus can drop bombs on civilans villages, eg; the Gov's military, under the guise of 'liberating the people', then the Gov's domestic agents will reflect that, no?

 

The part about the dogs is total crap. We can hear dogs barking in obvious distress in the video showing ATF agents taking cover behind vehicles in a heated exchange of gunfire. Sounded like malamutes to me.

 

Without the weapons, they could not have arrested him.

They would have had to hold him incommunicado to serve the search warrant in his basence, and they would probably still have met resistance.

 

Quote of the year guys: According to Blackrook, raping children = "not harming anyone".

 

Just think.

If the gun culture were not so ingranined, none of this would likely have taken place.

Personally, I think what I said before, that there was a lot of suspicion, dislike, and innuendo made against the BD and Koresh, because, imo, he represented something that appeared strange, to narrow minded outsiders, whose own lives and views are probably more strange, behind the mask of 'normality'.

Individualism is less and less welcome in the US, since even Koresh.

I cannot say that I would personally gravitate to the BD's, or Scientology, or Raelianism.

But then I am not one for wanting to belong to a group.

Now, these groups are not liked, and often aggressively attacked and undermined, in the media, whenever mentioned.

Why?

Do any have a long or recent history of terrible acts, up to and including murder, as with most religions?

Are any of their teachings any more bizarre than those of accepted cults?

Are any of them likely to be a catalyst behind a World war?

Have any produced books which speak and promote of things like genocide and infanticide, and human sacrifice, like the OT god?

If not, why are they so attacked and demonised, when the three big religions have such terrible form?

I think it is because, while you think you can be free from religion, you cannot, they won't let you.

Organised religion, what a terrible construct. I think anything that appears different, esp vastly different, from the very narrow world view of the organised religion, is seen as reason 'heretic', and treated as such.

Let's remember, there is actually no need for organised religion.

Do you really think Jesus would be happy with Christianity in the US today?

No way, not if the NT is to be believed.

It is also key to recall that Jesus was said to have stated , "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me".

But that did not mean through organised religion.

Of any kind.

Indeed, I would hazard that the last thing Jesus would have approved of is organised religion, as it is now, and has been for centuries.

Otherwise he may have said 'The only way for this to work is to organise into a well financed religous machine'.

He said 'through him', and by that I take it to mean his core message, a message which has never been more ignored by Christians in the US, as it is today.

Jack

 

According to the locals, they could have arrested Koresh days before when he was out and about. They did it the way they did it to make a point, but they actually exposed their incompetence and uncaring attitude about the innocents. The butchy Janet Reno was mainly responsible after being given the green light from the lightweight B. Clinton.

 

Not at all true. You do not have to have the item indicated in a warrant on your person to be detained by authorities for questioning. David could have been held by federal officials and investigated while the compound was searched by federal authorities. The Branch Davidians would not have engaged the feds without approval by Koresh.

 

I didn't realize thinking was taking unfair advantage of you. I do like your liberal mind-reading ability though. "It was clear that once he refused to honor the search warrant he intended nobody to leave the compound alive?" I suppose that sort of conceit is what led to the disaster at Waco.

Why was the action called "Operation Showtime" by older ATF agents? Why did the federal government want a confrontation?
Why didn't they arrest Koresh when he went to town for his haircut?

An FBI agent and I were discussing Waco and he kept insisting that no one did anything wrong. Finally, out of frustration, I said, "If you do it right you don't end up with so many dead people." He responded, "Oh, I'm not saying anyone did anything right but they didn't do anything wrong. They didn't violate any agency policy." Well, it's nice to know the people died according to policy.

 

You got it. The US Supreme Court, in the Miranda vs Arizona case, said that when government officials break the law, they set the example for many many people to break the law also.

On the barking dog issue, what if not all the dogs were shot?

On the end of the world, martyr mentality of Koresh:

His martyr complex was similar to many Muslims who imagine that they are dying in honor of Iman Hussain who likewise hoped that his death would wake someone up to repentance.

A martyr complex is bad enough to carry around, but he also had a sort of Armageddon complex too:

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and when you stop being a reactionary, then you will see clearly the common sense of the self evident truth that Armageddon is a lie entrenched in the very fabric of false knowledge and reactionary sovereignty and pretended self defense without the honor involved in national self defense.

Hasn't humanity had enough Armageddons already?

H.G. Wells said, "Human history is a race between education and catastrophe."

The 20th century alone shows that catastrophe was the winner and the 21st century began with catastrophe. Where is all that pretended education?

Armageddon is a no win war.

But peace is the win/win for all, for God's Peace is the True winning when the truth subjugates all the tendencies of hatred and resentment and pride and loftiness in the hearts and minds of men,
and chains forever the dragons of murder and mayhem in the battle field of our hearts and minds.

This is the true meaning of Armageddon.

And this is what God almighty intends to challenge us with: Should we yield to the beastly tendencies in ourselves and react to them in others?

Or should we employ the strong invincible attributes of our higher human nature of peace making through logical discourse, reasonable debate and unprejudiced dialogue?

How is it that we can agree on time zones and calendars, rules of sport and gaming, traffic laws and on the laws of navigation, aviation, commerce, industry and education in so many areas of our lives, but we can't agree on the basic nature of Almighty God, the Creator of us all and the Author of all good things?

The Almighty is not the author of evil and cannot be made into an excuse for injustice, corruption and war without calamitous consequences to ourselves.

The choice is ours, whether to graduate with honors and live, or be dumped and perish, for God is still God. He can still create from nothing, and, He cannot be blackmailed or mocked."

Sincerely,
The Royal American Institute For World Peace