Russia can now shoot down all but 200 US warplanes

Oh yea, the same thing with the tanks downrange at Camp Pendleton. The things had been hit with tens of thousands of LAW rockets, DRAGONs, TOWs, even 5.56 and 7.62 rounds along with mortars and pretty much every other piece of ordinance in the USMC armory. And they still looked like M-60 tanks. I asked one of the instructors how long they lasted, and he told me they had only replaced it a few years earlier with an M48 Pershing that had been there for decades.

Pull anything that burns or explodes from inside of a tank, and there is really not much you can do to one.

 

The "fireball" is the immediate effect of all that kinetic energy ionizing the air around it to plasma. It is not the "explosive fireball" most people think of.

And the idea of the sabot is not to destroy the tank, as much as to punch a hole so that blasted metal is blown inside. There it does wonderful things to the crew, control wires and hydraulic lines, and the like. And in the case of Soviet tanks they use an autoloader, which means in combat they always have a round sitting inside of the tank. Rupture that and you now have hot metal and plasma bouncing around in the tank with exposed gunpowder.

As for the fires, that is normally like most car fires, the fuel burning. All of that damage also often ruptures fuel lines (and Soviet tanks often had "fuel drums" exposed on the rear deck of the tank to extend their range. US tanks do the exact same thing, quite often the real damage is not from the round that knocked it out, but the fire that was started by the ruptured fuel lines.

And if I am not mistaken, HEAT nowadays is mostly relegated to going after APCs and other lightly armored vehicles. Not tanks, which get a silver bullet.

 

*smiles and nods in agreement*

Let me make a minor correction on what I intended to say. I was talking about modern armor and vehicles, not the older legacy stuff some third world countries might be using.

Yea, if the Dutchy of Grand Fenwick decided to attack the US with T-34 tanks and BA-30 APCs, even a HEAT round would probably be overkill. They probably would not even send in tanks against them, just a bunch of grunts with M72 LAW rockets and a couple of Bradley's with TOW missiles. But against a force of T-90 tanks you had better believe the grunts will be hiding the best they can till the Tanks or A-10s get on the scene.

 

Out of my element to be discussing tanks, but take a look at the video around the 2 minute mark. I think that's a HEAT round..
I think, emphasis on think... meaning I don't know for sure..120mm.HEAT rounds were used quite a bit during the Battle of 73 Easting in '91 and lots of burning tank hulls strewn about as a result. I don't know if Sabot rounds would have done the same sort of damage...seems purely kinetic type weapons are cleaner kill shots.

[video=youtube;aBG_G678Trg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBG_G678Trg[/video]

 

Thanks. I did a search and discovered a typical load out for an M1A1 Abrams during Desert Storm was 2/3 Sabot - 1/3 HEAT; M1 had Sabot/HEAT/HEP...basically the majority of tank kills were indeed from kinetic energy shells most often depleted uranium Sabot rounds. I will stand corrected and leave it at that. Yes a HEAT round is a copper based shaped charge...kinetic energy, but it does burn at molten temperatures to penetrate armor so I was thinking perhaps enough to initiate a sustained fire. I delivered ATOs, air tasking orders, and my only brush with combat was seeing Patriot missile batteries set up around Riyadh, shoot down the occasional Scud attack. Tanks are not my area of knowledge.

 

I have forgotten a great deal for sure and much of what I know is now effectively, obsolete. Not many use non-directional beacons for navigation as an example. My job at one time was to fly a technician around and calibrate those. GPS is making these increasingly obsolete. The flight deck of a J variant C-130 is completely foreign to me...the H model had analog steam gauges not digital glass cockpits. We kept manuals and publications in thick binders..now crews are issued tablets.

 

Your right....we...DON'T FIGHT FAIR!!

On another topic some Putin Supporters were going on about how if the U.S. Military attacked Russian Forces it would not be a Cake Walk like it was in Iraq.

I agreed that Russian Tank Crews would without a doubt be better trained and more effective than Iraqi Republucan Guard Mechanised Divisions but I explained to them that the vast majority of Russian Tanks would have been destroyed by a combination of the NEW U.S. Air Force CLUSTER BOMB MUNITIONS that do not violate the Cluster Bomb Ban Agreement which outlaws their use...which the United States did not sign anyways...but....the REASON Cluster Bomb Munitions use was outlawed and banned is because many of the Cluster Bomblets DO NOT EXPLODE.

The Bomblets that don't explode have in the past been picked up by CHILDREN who then play with them and when this happens many times the Munition DETONATES...killing the child or perhaps causing horrific mutilation of achilds body.

The NEW U.S. Military Cluster Bomb Munitions have been designed to RENDER THEMSELVES COMPLETELY INERT....once they seperate from their Bomb Casing and after a few minutes after they impact the ground....they render themselves inert and can no longer explode.

Anyways....a combination of U.S. Heavy Bombers using Cluster Anti-Tank Munitions.....F-15E Hudhens....and all other U.S. Airforce, Marines and Navy Fighter/Attack Aircraft using such munitions and anti-tank weapons as well.....plus A-10's....which are being retired...something I DO NOT agree with....as well as U.S. Army MLRS....Multiple Launched Rocket Systems.

Some MLRS use the not banned submunitions which are relatively large Explosively Formed Projectile (EFP) warheads with sensors (millimetre wave radar, infrared) which search the ground for tanks to attack in a spiral pattern during their descent (retarded by parachutes).

Plus add U.S. Cobra and Apache Longbow Choppers firing Hellfire Missiles....not to mention the Grunts on the GROUND using a number of Anti-Tank Rockets.....AND THIS MEANS BY THE TIME U.S. ARMY AND MARINE M1A2 AND M1A3 ABRAM'S TANKS CLOSE WITHIN FIRING DISTANCE AND ATTACK ANY RUSSIAN TANKS....THERE WOULD BE VERY LITTLE TO ANY LEFT!!

One of the biggest issues Russia has is that out of the 4000 T-72 Tanks and varients of Russia has only about 1600 T-72's are actually Battle Ready ad even this number might be overstated.

As far as T-80's and T-90's....these exist numerically in HANDFULLS....as Russia simply does not have the money to produce them in any number.

By contrast the U.S. Military has CLASSIFIED the number of A1A2 and A1A3 and a few older varient Abrams Tanks that are battle ready but according to JANE'S....the number is around 6000 some of which are already PREPOSITIONED AROUND THE WORLD.

Russian Military Doctrine is STILL very much centered around the concept of LARGE NUMBERS OF ARTILARY PIECES....positioned along a FIXED LINE FRONT.....raining down munitions and destruction upon the enemies lined forces....which is EXACTLY how the Soviet Military fought and defeated the NAZI'S....back during WWII....as HUGE numbers of Soviet Artillary would first OPEN UP....and thousands upon thousands of Artillary Rounds would destroy and kill Nazi Tanks, Artillary and Troops.

Then the Soviet T-34 Tanks the first Tank to employ SLOPED ARMOR DESIGN....and the T-34 was without a doubt the very BEST TANK OF WWII.....would quickly engage the Nazi's with huge numbers of Soviet Troops along with them.

If Russia was to use this type of Battle Plan against U.S. Military Forces...and this IS...what current Russian Military Docrine and Battle Planning exists as....then against the U.S. Military and U.S. Battle Plan's....Russian Forces are DOOMED before the battle is even started.

The U.S. Military first employes a Battle Plan that first destroys all enemy Communication and Radars.....Destroys all Enemy Satellite Targetting, Tracking, Communication and Detection......Destroyes all enemy Computer Capability specific to Battle Analysis and Communication as U.S. Cyber Command would INFECT an enemies Computer Controlled Systems and Communications with Computer Viruses which would render all such systems inert.

F-16 Wild Weasel's would fire hundreds if not thousands of HARM....Anti-Radar...Anti-Radiation Missiles at all enemy Radar Tracking and Missile Guidance and Tracking....as a Wild Weasel flies directly at enemy SAM and other Missile and Radar Sites and as the SAM's Tracking Radar is Turned On....the F-16 launches it's HARM Missile which follows the SAM's Tracking Radar to source and destroys it.

All this effectively renders an enemy...BLIND, DEAF AND DUMB....as not only can an enemy's Military no longer communicate with other aspects of it's Military but as well anyone attempting to shoot down a U.S. Aircraft KNOWS....the moment they turn that tracking radar on...they are going to be the target of a Missile.

After all this...the U.S.A.F. achieves AIR SUPREMACY....as it will effectively destroy all enemy aircraft, hangers, bunkers, landing strips and SAM'S.

At this point and once Air Supremacy is achieved...it's.....GAME OVER!!!

After the United States Military achieves Air Supremacy it can act with IMPUNITY and as no nation posseses any possible way to stop the Battle Plan and Tactics I have so described above short of launching Nuclear Weapons....it is safe to say the ONLY way Russia could prevent the complete and total destruction of it's entire Military would be to NEVER attempt any Military Action that would force the United States to respond with a Military attack upon Russia.

Since using the Nuclear Option is SUICIDE FOR BOTH NATIONS....unless Nuclear Weapons are used by Russia FIRST...the United States would never launch Nuclear Weapons.

Since any U.S. Counter Attack upon the Russian Military...as for the U.S. Military to attack Russian Forces it would first take an attack by Russian Military Forces upon either American or Ally Forces for the U.S. to launch a counter strike.....since any U.S. Counter Strike would have NOTHING TO DO WITH ATTEMPTING TO TAKE OR SEIZE RUSSIAN TERRITORY.......

.......it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY IN THE EXTREME.....that Russia would launch Nuclear Weapons at a COUNTER ATTACKING U.S. MILITARY FORCE that does not attempt to seize Russian Territory.

AboveAlpha

 

During Phase 2 of initial flight training; based on test scores for things like Emergency Procedures Quizzes (EPQs) and qualitative flight check rides, I graduated 17th out of a flight consisting initially of 25 students; 7 were washed out meaning I was 2nd to last.. Not a great way to start a military career. Top is great, middle is ok, but the bottom...well, best start looking over your shoulder.

My biggest weakness in the Contact stage was G-Awareness Exercise (G-Ex) that tests your G-tolerance...in a nutshell this translates to a physical fitness program that was designed to incrementally increase your tolerance for G forces. Well..exercise has never been a strong suit or something I even enjoyed.

Long story short, an IP, an instructor pilot mentioned the only reason I didn't join the other 7 wash outs was the Instrument/Navigation Stage which required studying and memorizing instrument procedures, flight rules and regulations, and of course chairflying instrument flight.

There were eight instrument flights and during the final one the instructor took the plane cross-country and did practice instrument approaches at unfamiliar fields out-of-area destinations. He said I was the best instrument flyer in our particular flight (the USAF name for class). Prior to earning a commission, I had earned an instrument rating to go along with a private pilot's license. It saved my bacon. I was further advanced than most of the other students in this particular stage of training, even those that had a private pilot's license, they were VFR only.

My strength was flying under the hood...precision instrument flying. I loved it. I hated the stomach churning immelmans, loops, barrel and aileron rolls. I did not feel the need for speed...fortunately for myself, the USAF had driver slots for aircraft other than those with pointy noses that went really fast and subjected you to high G forces.

 

And you are saying Russia would be no harder to defeat than Iraq was? Russia knows how the US fights, it is not exactly a hidden thing, so why are you convinced they have not updated tactics?

Freddy.

 

No...Russia would be a much more worthy adversary.

But the end result of such a conflict as long as Nuclear Weapons were not used is not in doubt.

AboveAlpha

 

Understand that Russian Battle Tactics are designed to counter attack and defeat an INVADING GROUND FORCE.

Russian Military Doctrine is specific to defeating an invading military force...it is NOT designed to take on a Highly Mobile Military Force that in no way is attempting to grab land and hold it.

AboveAlpha

 

Definition of VFR.

VERY F@$#!NG REAL!!!

LOL!!!

AboveAlpha

 

Oddly enough the AH-64A was IMC qualified, while the 64D was not. I don't know why the regression, but the bottom line is your job is to shoot tanks not approaches.

I think the last time I used an NDB on an aircraft was to try to tune in a radio station to check on a football score. It is good to know some of you rotor-heads still use them. The challenge for me was to try to not look outside the window after the gear comes up until it's time to land. In retrospect, scanning for traffic might have been a good idea...as you can't always trust traffic clearance separations.

 

As a civilian taking flight lessons at what was then Parks airport in Cahokia, Illinois; around my 3rd solo practicing flying the pattern and doing touch and go landings. An Army National Guard UH-1 helicopter (this is 1982) had taken off and was cleared ahead of me. As I enter the final approach, I hit his rotor vortex and it induced a very noticeable roll in my little Cessna 152. I recovered, but I remember driving home and my foot was shaking so violently I had to pull over and calm down. Helicopters also produce wake turbulence. Helicopter wakes may be of significantly greater strength than those from a fixed wing aircraft of the same weight; particularly two blade main rotor systems, typical of lighter helicopters, as these produce stronger wake than rotor systems with more blades. I was VFR of course, but ATC didn't account for lingering wake vortices; they probably weren't used to a lot of helo traffic and this was mainly a general aviation airport, no heavy aircraft.

 

Well if there is no doubt without the use nuclear weapons the Russians will know this as well & in the event of a real war with the US will use them.

Freddy.

 

Well here is the thing....the ONLY way that the U.S. would ever attack Russian Military Forces would be in a Counter Attack.

Russia would first have to attack a NATO country or attack U.S. Forces before the U.S. would ever strike back.

And let's just say that for some stupid reason Russia attacked Poland.

In that case the U.S. Military would directly attack any invading Russian Forces.

Since any U.S. Counter attack would not involve any attempt to invade or grab Russian territory it is unlikely in the extreme that Russia would counter any overwhealming defeat of Russian Forces in Poland with Nukes.

AboveAlpha

 

If Ukraine finally manages to provoke Russia into invading it are you saying the US will counter attack a counter attack in the knowledge that Russia will not then back down & allow all the ethnic russians in Ukraine to be massecured by the NAZI millitias from Livov?

Freddy.