Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by cerberus, Jan 22, 2018.
I was referring to the credibility you lack and the humor in you stating I do not have it.
Chechnya, Georgia conflicts (including war crimes). Less recently, Soviet conflicts like Afghanistan. Interfering with elections in the United States and Europe. Oligarchical corruption. Persecution of political dissenters. Backwards social policies compared to America, which I already don't hold in high esteem. If we want to go way back in history America has a lot of really ugly things like genocide against natives, slavery, and a war to prevent the south from forming their own country, but Russia also has a history of exterminating its own people as under Stalin.
I guess the caveat is that most powerful nations have behaved badly historically in the quest to preserve the interests of the powerful few. Somebody even more cynical than myself might even say that's why they're powerful. So it's really more a matter of neither America nor Russia being unusually good. But fearing each other and having conflicts is not at all surprising.
I don't 'lurk', I'm a full and long-standing member; so perhaps you should complain to PF management that only Americans should be allowed to post on here? Oh, and I'm not a foreigner either! lol Anyhoo, I'm done with your small-town bigotry so don't expect me to reply to any more of your posts.
No, I rolled my eyes because it was the USSR that invaded Afghanistan, not Russia. (Oops I nearly forgot - )
Nice, they attacked their neighbors, once called their brothers, and it is... Western aggression. How does this absurd came into heads of thease poor people? As i allready wrote, the reason ir total brainwash in russian mass media. In their reality Putin is the great leader and all around Russia is the russophobe pigs - enemies, who want to destroy Russia, because they are jealous on Russia.
You oversimplify the picture. The propaganda is active in Russia and the West. For instance Putin has officially withdrawn Russian military from Syria several times already. In fact it was a diplomatic game and change of tasks. Russia did take most part of attack aircraft. But only after there was no longer a need for massive strikes. Is it propaganda? Yes it is. Did I buy it? Yes I did. But I understand the reason why it happened and I don't have anything against.
The mainstream media is really under the control of the state. But it is all about the 'self-limitations' of journalists. We don't have tons of information garbage which we had in the 90s and YouTube with blogs help to get a different opinion about different decisions. It doesn't suit the model freedom of speech, I agree. But there cannot be freedom of speech in a war time and what happens in the world is the war. So again I see that Putin and Russian state is ready to the challenge and manages to make reasonable decisions.
If we return from general situation to concrete facts - I can remind certain facts about Ukraine and Maidan:
1. The conflict about gas was a big issue. Ukraine tried to take all the profit from Russian gas leaving all the expenses at Russia. That was not acceptable and that is why the North Stream and South Stream started. If Ukraine worked together with Russia - it would have been no problem. This year this issue will be solved. Ukraine had plenty of opportunities and it is not the fault of Putin.
2. When Yanukovich was looking for the development of Ukraine he really chose European path and Putin saw the risks for Russia from this decision and offered several ways out. If the text of Euroassociation between Ukraine and EU didn't work against WTO agreement signed by Russia and left the tools for Putin to guard Russian industries - there would be no 'trade wars' between Russia and Ukraine.
3. Moreover Putin offered financial help to Ukraine and alternative plan for industry development. Russia needed a lot of products which Ukraine could produce. But it wasn't even discussed until the very last moment. And when Yanukovich really calculated the risks and saw that the economy of Ukraine would drop to the level where it is now, it was the US and EU who organized bloody Maidan and installed a puppet-state in Ukraine. Russia aacted accordingly. There was no need to regard a puppet Bandera state as an independent. Russia started the game against the US and EU. It was a pure counterplay which wouldn't have happened if not Maidan.
I don't regard even people who call me a pig or a throll as pigs and throlls. They are people anyway. They are just brainwashed. And the only argument of theirs when they confront my argument is emotional rejection... That's not my problem. If my opponents had a peaceful and reasonable way out - there would have been no need for emotions or speculations and constant repeating of quite stupid western propaganda.
yes, some intellectuals turned back on him, but that's all. In Russia you can call to kill people, to bomb countries with atomic weapons on state TV at primetime, without any consequences. In mean time, if your not in 'elite', you,for playing pokemon game in church, can be dropped into jail.
And i remaind You, Dugin, past member of pretty organizaton "Black order of SS", now is the member of so called Isborsk club. In the meetings of this organization of fashists, chauvinists and consorpologists took part also the minister of culture and other prominent persons. But the fascism is in Ukraine,yeh, right...
I agree with all of that. I can't believe it's happening. You call it 'Western aggression', I call it 'Western stupidity.'
Again, you can tell this to people, who don't understand russian and don't know, what is happening in Russian media. In Russia media terrible things are happening, hate speeches against states and nations, calls for the aggressive war and terrible lie. Gebels would be inpressed, waching this. And all this is controlled by the Putins regime. Allso bilding of the cult of personality is happening since he came to power. Nothing like this are taking place in the West
These "facts" are existing only in your brainwashed head. Thats what im talking about.
What is the Western stupidity? It's when Russia attacked their so called brother nation and turned neutral or even friendly country to an enemy, who want to join NATO? This is Western stupidity when Russia, country with 2% of the wolds GDP stars a conflict with her main bussines partners and worlds largest economy putting herself into isolation? I see, that you dont even undarstand, what you have done.
Lie. We have some political shows and some of the guys really lose their heads from time to time. But it is not a rule and there is no propaganda comparable to propaganda in the USSR against the 'capitalists' or anti-communist propaganda of the 90s. I studied pre-war propaganda and I notice the gradual change to the worse, but it cannot be compared with the nightmare that happens in western propaganda.
The first thing propaganda of hatred needs to do is 'dehumanisation' of the possible rival. It requires caricatures, hatred speeches towards nations, movies and so far we don't have it complete. I see the start of western political elite dehumanization and unfortunately there are plenty of propaganda against Bandera-followers in Ukraine. This is what I can expect. If you find a movie, a caricature of a westerner (American, brit, german etc.), a movie against these nations or anything of that kind - I will be grateful. Because you needed to see anything to tell so.
I can only expect you to come up with some Zhirinovsky speech. But he only got more than 10% votes in the 90s. At the moment he is ranked #3 in election campaign and hardly makes it over 5%. This guy is a clown and populist. He promises everything to everyone for several decades, but it is a free society and you always have someone like that in the parliament.
OK. Who benefited from Maidan? Did the people of Ukraine start to live better? Worse? And the EU got a debtor, a market, all the resources of Ukraine and possibility to play against Russia.
Some political shows? Lie? Why does it happening frequently, it continues for years, aginst Baltic states from the 90ties, against US - from the soviet time and against Ukraine in past 5 years propaganda is so hard, that peopple in Russia become a pack of cattle, redy to kill rusophobic pigs? Why does in state TV noone can even mention the name of A.Navalnij? How can it be?
I can come up with "documentary" films from sate TV, where they are telling about fascist concentration camps in Ukraine. I can come up with tales, how ukrainians raped epileptic russian grandmother. I can come up with stories, where ukrainians eat human flesh. You want it? And than what you will say? We both know, that this kind of trash was produced great quantieties...
Argument in level of "doctors are guilty in all the diseases on the Wold, because without diseases they wont have a job". So logical... And whats most intetesting - you cant ewen tell, what was the benifits of EU from Maidan...
I'll admit that I don't know much about this subject because I've never studied it in depth, but my opinion is that Ukraine 'wanted to join' NATO because it was invited to join, and it was invited to join for the sole purpose of provoking Putin. I believe Putin had to rein in Ukraine because the administrative government had become corrupt, and because the administration had been infiltrated by jihadists (much the same as Chechnya had been). And Crimea was annexed because of the result of a referendum, and as I understand it, for the greater good of the population. The West has mischievously hyped all this up under the heading of 'Russian aggression'. I happen to believe that with any faults he may have, Putin knows what's best for his satellite states.
Ukrainian government was infiltrated by jihadists? You mean it? Maybe not by jihadists, but by reptilians from another planet, who wanted to destroy Russia? Why not?
And as i understood, Ukraine wants to join NATO not because Russian aggression, but just because they were invited?
And after that kind of absurd someone will say, that people un Russia are not brainwashed?
So you want to say, that at first was the referendum and only after the referendum Russian army occupied Crimea?
That's exactly what I said.
Sorry but there are too many questions in your post which I'm not sure what you mean, or even if they are questions, and not suggestions for my consideration.
Separate names with a comma.