Should Government Control or Outlaw Unions?

Neither.

 

What the market will demand and supply of free labor dictates. 97% of the country gets their pay that way. Unions fight and block the free movement of labor, then when they stick companies in places where they have only their workforce or in a closed shop state they say something crazy like "you are free to contract as you wish", as if they will not sue them if they try too, as if they won't block the doors and call the replacement scabs. Nothing to say about that Boeing block? What about the cost they extract from the consumers because of their protections and tactics?

 

I'll ask you again point blank; can you show me any labor contract which prohibits the employer from firing an employee for just cause??

 

I think most people's experience with unions is construction, plumbing, and electrical unions, and I'm not too sure what middle sized business owner needs to be put into place by a union. What leverage does a middle sized business owner have?

Now, the question of a need for unions in dealing with the GE's, GM's, Boeing's, Big Steel, ect. is a entirely different ball game.

 

They extract nothing, but what a willing private party concents to in a contract.

They get sued for violating that contract they signed.

You do not have a right to tell me and other private citizens, we can't own our collective labor!

You do not have a right to collective labor!

That is the free market.

Do you have a different definition?

 

What would you do if you fought a noble battle with your employer and lost even though you felt you were the best employee they had?

I've seen so many people with your confidence go into the bosses office and 15 minutes later walk out with their hat in hand, headed down to HR to collect their 2 weeks severance pay. You sort of feel bad for them because they were so sure of themselves and wanted to handle it man-to-man and they came out of the office totally emasculated. Its not reflection on you personally; just an observation i've made over the years.

A union is sort of like an insurance policy; you hope you never need it but its there if you do. I don't need automobile insurance; heck I'm a great driver and have never had an accident in my entire life of driving but just in case the other guy hits me or if i do make a mistake and have an accident I know i've got insurance and i'm covered up to a point.

 

That's kind of a loaded question, isn't it? If the contract doesn't allow someone to be fired due to poor performance in a certain area then poor performance would not be considered "just cause". The contract stipulates what is and isn't "just cause".

 

My experience was as a mechanic at a bakery. The owners of the company has massive other bakeries in MD and make a ton of money. One of my former co-workers, and now one a great friend of mine, overheard the owner of the company say to his niece, 'If this bakery takes off, like we believe it will, you'll never have to work a day in your life'. I hold no beef or grudge over the owner of the company for that, that's the whole premise of capitalism. However, you can't 100% tell me that unions are better for a company.

In some cases, unions are needed (Some of wish you've named), but generally, they're not all that great. They're good for folks who just need a job and just want to work. They'd rather not deal with raises and promotions. Me, I've asked for a raise before after I was given a promotion. I have no qualms over going after what I feel is right. What's the worse they're going to say or do? Not give me one? Then I'll just look for another job, it's as simple as that. Of course, this varies by person but when I first got into the job market, I had no experience. I'm now a BusinessObjects System Administrator, most folks probably don't even know what BusinessObjects is, much less who owns them.

 

LOL!! You need to click your silly EGO down to "reasonable".

You ain't all-that, unless you are a VERY wealthy person. The average worker has virtually no voice, unless they are grouped with other workers as a means of 'support'.

You may have gotten something done by yourself once, twice, even a few times (perhaps many others have as well); but if you are 'alone' and a large corporation or wealthy person is ready to crush you, without others to watch your back... you'll be 'finished' in very little time.

I say, get real.

 

Your points are well-made!

 

What about the consumer at large? What union contract guarantees specific performance? You see a lot of democrats giving contracts out to non union companies etc.. Lots of variable in what means to be able to fire I think even you must agree to that. In any event what about protections on imported competition they lobby against? Certainly you agree that is a cost to society?

 

What you describe above are trade unions which are mostly blue collar unions; there are also private sector white collar unions, which include hospital workers, security guards, media, airline workers, secretarial, chemical workers, hotel and resturaunt workers, teachers, entertainment, theatical workers and the list goes on and on.

My union has shops as small as 5 people in the bargaining unit and we never have an issue obtaining a contract; the employees know the limitations financially of what the employer can afford and they develop a working partnership and forge a contract.

Unions are at a low point right now, but as the new generation enters the workforce and see's what their parents working conditions were and do a comparision, you will most likely see an upswing in union membership.

 

What right does the consumer have to register an opinion on a contract between two consenting private parties.

You don't like the product, then buy something else, or don't buy it at all!

 

Game well- I would get another job. Probably with a competitor. I wouldn't want to force someone to pay me that does not want to. I would feel like a thief. If someone wants you gone at the very least your continued precense there is enough to hurt that person's morale and that is good enough cause. Any cause they want really...maybe if they just wanted more profits that would also be a good reason.

 

Then it's time to look for another job, simple as that. I've done it multiple times. I actually just left a large consulting firm because I had to fight for my raise, as I was the reason the BusinessObjects application was a success. I even had the client talk to some of my bosses in regards to 'What are we going to do?' because I was leaving. I even had some of my managers, indirectly, try to keep me to stay. I still talk to some of them, even one I had a semi-nasty discussion with (My direct supervisor, who was a Senior Manager).

No sir, I understand what you're getting at. However, I've never had that scenario. I've always been the one to leave my job for another, regardless of outcome and my words. However, I wouldn't go into a discussion with a loaded gun and automatically pull the trigger, if you catch my drift. I don't think quitting and getting into something so bad that they fire you or give you a check and pat you on your behind on your way out. I think you need to stand your ground and own your territory. If your employer doesn't feel the same about your work as you do, it's time to find a new job.

Maybe so, but I'm of the person who'd rather take some risks. When it comes unions, I've had a bad experience with one, I simply rather not continue the experience. My stance is folks should protect themselves as they see fit. If you wish to have insurance, that's your right to do it. If I don't want insurance, that's my right as well. When it comes to unions, in particular, I'd skip that insurance altogether and just take the risk of protecting myself. I've done a good job so far, in my opinion, I know I'm on the right track.

Again, this isn't a cookie cutter scenario, I just know it works for me. For others, they may need it and I believe they should have that protection, if they wish to have it.

 

I want to se a labor movement in the service sector.

If we are going to have a service sector economy, then those jobs need to pay wages capable of supporting US consumption.

I don't buy the line that Mcdonald's can't pay a living wage, and still make a profit. My Papa John's pizza may cost 13 cents more, but that is a burden I think most of us are willing to bare, so the delivery driver can have HC insurance.

 

No.

The First Amendment grants individuals the freedom to associate with whom they will

That same freedom of association gives employers the freedom to decline to associate with goonions.

Government workers, on the other hand, should never be allowed to goonionize. If they don't like working for low wages and long hours, they can find work in the private sector. There is, after all, not only no right to a job, anywhere, there's no right to collective bargaining.

Only in government are goonions growing in the US, and it's time for the 85% of the people who aren't in goonions to start demanding their elected representatives begin representing the interests of the 85%, not the 15%.

 

The unions buy political protection with their membership. It is abig special Interest that takes from others to enrich themselves. I never said unions were bad for their workers. I said they were bad for everyone else including people that want to be in that field.

 

He made a blanket statement; I was calling him on it. And your correct, discharge language in all contracts are negotiated, so whatever the employer and union come to an agreement on what will dictate "just cause"; tho' I've seen contracts which don't stipulate what is and what isn't just cause and its left up to an arbitrator or neutral third party to decide based on testimony from both sides and relevant contract language.

For what its worth, in many contracts, performance is one of the regular reasons for Just Cause termination, however the company has the burden of proof in this case.

 

Are you really this simple?

So how long before the people who own the business's in your area figure out that if they all tell you they won't employ you for more then minimum wage, that you will eventually accept this?

Its like the idea of leverage is a new word I just made up to you.

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Bad employees don't get fired where I work not because of the union, they don't get fired because of incompetant, or ignorent managers that aren't willing to follow the process to get them fired.

 

Of course they can pay a living wage and provide meaningful benefits, it just means a few less pennies for the shareholders or franchise owner.

Btw I just read where the CWA just organized two Dunkin' Donut shops in New York City.

 

It is "reasonable", reasonable for me.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you knew who I was to make such a judgement call. Maybe the difference is I didn't make a career on tax payers dollar and got cradled by the government.

I've gotten things done on several occasions. I could run down the list but it's rather moot when it comes to you. You stick to your ways and nothing anyone says, you still buy into you're own beliefs. Cuddles to you for standing on your beliefs. I'd say it's not all just the way you perceive the world to be.

Can't get any realer.

 

Unions don't represent the unemployed looking to work. They try to keep them out of their field to keep wages artificially high.

 

I've found that many managers don't do their homework and show up to an arbitration ill prepared to move forward on a discharge case. They rely mainly on speculation and in the labor field, that does't hold water. Its just another reason why its not easy to terminate a union represented employee.

It's also important to remember, the union in most cases doesn't hire the employees; rather its the employer who does and the union has a legal obligation to represent them. If the HR did their job properly its most likely terminations of employees would be much lower.

 

Why should any company pay a living wage when the work they hire out can be done by the least educated people in the country, future DemocRATs?

Nobody is owed a living by anyone else, they're not even owed a job. If someone wants to earn a living, they need to learn some skill that someone else wants to hire out. Lewinski apprenticed under Clinton, didn't she? Aren't all DemocRATs like that?