It's pretty clear that Abraham, Moses and the Exodus are just a story written around 7th century BCE. Ancient Mesopotamian history shows that. It's an interesting story that is written by scribes who had little understanding of wilderness life and got their ancient history wrong. Why would Moses lead the Hebrews from antagonistic Egypt to a land controlled by Egyptians. Out of the frying pan into the fire. The Armana Letters show how Palestine was taken from the Egyptians by the indigenous tribes - one called Israel. The plagues were nothing unusual in Egypt, especially when the Monsoons in central African mountains failed for several years and the Nile dried up. The death of the firstborn was a good touch when you consider the importance attributed to the first born son not only in Egypt and in Judaism but other peoples/nations.Small tribes went into and out of Egypt continually, using the Delta for feeding their animals. There were settlements of various peoples. There, were 2 known Exoduses. Ahmose II threw out the Hyksos and went on a conquering spree. While he was away his wife assumed power and threw peoples from a city that were causing problems. There is NO evidence of any Exodus or invasion of Palestine, only disassociated facts thrown together to 'prove' an Exodus
Isn't it amazing how 2 millenia of Church Doctrine is gradually falling apart with modern understanding of the ancient times, cultures, history and much of it due to archaeology. This confirms certain events recorded in the Bible, and denies other events. It does not necessarily show the reason given for the event. For instance it does not show Joshua 'fought the battle of Jericho'. Simply that the walls fell. Not unusual in an earthquake zone. It does show that Ai was long gone before the supposed Joshua 'overthrew' it. It shows that these mighty cities - though walled - were merely the size of a modern modest town. You could walk round ancient Jericho in less than 30 minutes. Isaiah's 'Lucifer' was an invention of an early Church Father. In a museum somewhere - lost the reference - there's a letter written by someone in the palace of Ashurbanipal which refers to the 'lions' in the Palace. But it is not referring to animals, but those enemies who are a danger to the King. Daniels are certainly known in the Bible. One priest who signed Nehemiahs was named Daniel. And the name is found in Babylonian records. But was there a 'seer' called Daniel in Nebuchadnezzars palace. We don't know. . Found the reference. Although the story in Dan 6 gives every indication that the lions are real, it is worth noting that the ancient world also knew of the metaphorical use of the “lions’ den” motif, just as we do. So, for example, in a Neo-Assyrian letter from an ousted court official named Urad-Gula to King Ashurbanipal, Urad-Gula asks for financial assistance and, in the course of this request, describes the royal court metaphorically as a den or pit of lions. As with our contemporary use, then, this ancient letter employs the lions’ den as a metaphor for mean colleagues or wicked competitors. There's no archaeological evidence for lions 'dens' in the ancient world. While lions were kept for the nobles to 'hunt' they could not survive long in a 'den'. Lions in Samuel are also kept in terms of huntings. Lions were not maintained as in zoo's today. Simply used for the sport of hunting. We can cross reference OT writings, phrases and thoughts with earlier Ugarit writings etc. We know 'Matthew' and Lukes nativity stories are simply wrong. Their geneaologies are incorrect and incomplete. Time for my lunch.
No, not if I saw him perform miracles similar to those described in the bible. That would be very convincing.
The only value of the Exodus story is it made for a great movie, i.e., the one with Charlton Heston as Moses and Yul Brynner as Pharaoh.
Dude this is that Luigi chemist . Are you still peddling the Luigi replica . I don’t even need to give out the details of the many ways this has already been debunked All I need to do is explain one thing . Sturp has already proven that the blood came first then the image . Luigi’s replica starts with the image then the blood is added next . Why oh why can’t you atheists do some honest research before you try to debunk something like the shroud . Do I need to give out the links that show what I said is correct ?? This is why Ciscop which has a stage magician as one of the high ups on this organization doesn’t qualify as a True scientific organization . This is why I keep saying that atheism isn’t really a lack of beliefs in god , it’s a desperate hole that god doesn’t exist . This post right here demonstrates this perfectly . If you were an honest seeker you’d have looked at both sides and researched carefully before sloppily posting a long ago debunked video link . Dude what do you have against God ???
can we stay on topic please . This is the shroud thread isn’t it ?? People please stay on topic whether it’s is Christians or atheists .
Guys if you want to discuss the exodus why not make a separate thread . Let’s keep the thread on topic which is the shroud of Turin , one of the favorite subjects of atheists
If you want to refute Christianity , it rises and falls with the resurrection of Jesus not speculation of the exodus , but then agains those are subjects for another thread .
My grandson had a ghostly experience, and my granddaughter had two unbelievable ones, but that's what happens to teenagers when they go running around at all hours of the night in Westchester County. I think both places were mafia habitat. As for me, I've had two minor experiences, but nothing like my granddaughter's. I do have a poltergeist though that loves to mess around with my electricity and computer. As for religious experiences, I have had holy ones, and I am especially dependent on my 'blessed oil'. And as for the other kind, a demon was revealed to me once and it was very frightening. The eyes glowed like black coal with sparkling embers. I couldn't look at them. I'm sorry I went off topic, but I couldn't help myself.
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2017/11/no-image-under-blood-25-man-on-shroud.html?m=1 Prof. Luigi Garlaschelli (2009), first produced his `shroud' and "then added blood stains ... to achieve the final effect":"An Italian scientist says he has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake ... `We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud,' Luigi Garlaschelli ... said. A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, Garlaschelli ... reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages. They placed a linen sheet flat over a volunteer and then rubbed it with a pigment containing traces of acid. A mask was used for the face ... The pigment was then artificially aged by heating the cloth in an oven and washing it, a process which removed it from the surface but left a fuzzy, half-tone image similar to that on the Shroud ... They then added blood stains, burn holes, scorches and water stains to achieve the final effect"[25]See my my 08Oct09 and Prof. John Jackson'srefutation of Garlaschelli on that point. there is no image under the blood meaning that the order of events is blood first followed by image" alone invalidates all claimed `replications' of the Shroud which all add the blood after the image[26]! https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...ientists_claim_of_reproducing_shroud_of_turin For example, he continued, we know that the blood contacted the shroud before the body “because there’s no image beneath the shroud.” He added that this image pattern would be difficult to duplicate “because it would ruin the blood stains.” Another area concern for the scientists is the three dimensionality of the shroud. Propp explained that while Garlaschelli’s cloth does have some aspects of light and dark to create a three-dimensional perspective, “it’s nowhere near as sophisticated as the shroud” and that “it misses out on the accuracy and subtleties that are in the actual image.” Dr. Jackson from the Turin Shroud Center also touched on the same point, saying, “The shroud’s image intensity varies with” the distances in between the cloth and the body. While he admitted that the images of Garlaschelli’s shroud on the internet look authentic, when taken from a 3-D perspective, “it’s really rather grotesque.” “The hands are embedded into the body and the legs have unnatural looking lumps and bumps,” he explained. Sturp team of scientists stayed that from their battery of tests that the blood came first before the image for many reasons one of which the 3d topographical distance info based on the intensity of light , plus whatever caused the image to firm was blocked by the blood as the sturp team found no image under the blood
Do you really think the experiences you had are unusual? If you think so you are sadly mistaken. Many people have unexplainable experiences in their lives. On returning to camp one night (as an airman) I alighted from the transport and immediately felt sick and giddy as I saw - in my mind - an aircraft crashing. No aircraft were in the air at the time. Night training of the pilot cadets started much later in the evening. The next morning we learned that a cadet had been killed when his aircraft crashed during the small hours. I could write a paper with all my unexplained experiences.
Exodus and shroud are same. Believers believe in spite of facts because logically gave something close to facts but doesn't hold up logically.
The God of the OT is the same God as in the NT. The difference is that in the OT God is presented as a punishing father because it was the only way people could understand the consequences of their actions in that time and place. It's very instructive. God being Pure Creation and Love, cannot negate from Himself. Anything harmful and destructive, whether it's natural or a consequence of war, comes from the coldness of our hearts when we turn away from God. It happens because everything and everyone is interconnected in some way. How we feel and act will affect others in either a positive or negative fashion. If the coldness and pulling away from God's Creative power is extensive, then expect the worse. I wouldn't worry just about wars, but about the earth and the way it's heating up inside.
Well, the reality is there is no need to debunk something that is not proven to be true. And your proof is???
