So God... wrote a book?

If God ghostwrote for anyone, it would have to be Dostoevsky. It's hard to beat a good Dostoevsky novel.

The Bible? That thing is a comic book in need of a good (divinely inspired?) illustrator!

 

It seems he has made his will known to individuals and groups since the beginning of recorded human history. Over time, it becomes discarded, perverted, and in some cases preserved and re applied. Not to mention that many of those who have declared it have been murdered. I think that were he to appear to the entire earth and every human it would do more harm than good in that so many are simply unprepared. Consequently it would obligate and consign them to utter failure, thus rendering salvation to a sentence of destruction and despair. So in whole, God works in a more curious fashion with individuals along the course of their lives, a little here a little there, readying us for more, enlarging our souls and understandings, lengthening our strides, until we are more able. Why aren't we born with a mouthful of teeth, fully grown and dashing like a quail born running. It's not how things work. Perhaps our physical growth somewhat prepares us for the concept of spiritual growth. In short, I don't really know. My vision and comprehension are nearer to that of a mole than an eagle. I only know that God is real and that he lives. So how and why he does what he does is his call. Whatever he designs, I trust it to result in being perfect and astonishing. And I am excited at the prospect that one day all of our ignorance and questions will become testimonies to his glory and the realization of our faith.

 

But more than one written text is claimed to be the word of God. And I have met believers in other religions who are just as adamant and don't appear to be anymore wilfully blind than you do (I don't think either of you are). And I can't agree that either of you are disobedient to messages you don't understand or have not received.

If, for example, Islam is the true religion, I don't see how devout Christians could be faulted for being wrong all these years. Same applies the other way around. Same applies to Catholic vs Mormon vs Jewish vs Hindu, etc. Same applies to atheists who never found any claims about God (s) convincing.

No particular understanding or religion about God(s) is held by the majority of humans, so no matter what the truth is, most humans got it wrong, which is shockingly poor communication for an all powerful being, if said being intends us to know them and what they want etc.

I think the answer has to be somewhere along the lines of if such a being or beings exist, they either are not all powerful (maybe there is more than one and they obscure each other or something like that) or they don't wish to be known by all.

 

There is but one that is unerring... prophesies fulfilled... the characters being revealed as absolutely real people,, that the one we call the Holy Bible.. the book of the God of Abraham Issac and Joseph.

 

And so very many of other religions think the same about their own. You see them as wrong, and you as right, and they see it the other way around. If either of you are right, then there is a God who hasn't made it clear to one of you.

 

In my view, only the following sentences makes sense to:


Either God wrote all books, or He wrote no books.

Or, God is an abstraction called infinity, not a 'supreme being', and wrote no books, or all books, as all things, arise from and are inspired by infinity.

 

Ah your assumptions.. there is muc h wisdom in other text.. afterall that is what it is all about.. the pursuit of truth and wisdom. So good luck with your own search.. I don't think you are open to any help I coulds give you.

 

Once we start defining God as Infinity or Love, or other such concepts, I think we have gotten well away from what most self declared theists mean by the term.

 

I am not looking for your help. I am looking for perspectives and explanations of the question asked in the OP.

And by the above, do you mean that you see truth and wisdom in all books called holy books? What to do when they conflict with one another as so many do.

And also, the original question remains. Why would an all powerful creator God write a book instead of simply making whoever he wants to know something, just know whatever the God wants them to know, and since he created them, make them fully capable of understanding whatever it is the God wants them to know?

I think this may be an even harder question than the problem of evil question.

 

Me thinks that assumption may be a major contributor to all the confusion....
People use words like "heaven" and "pearly gates".....but have no idea
what those ideas are actually referring to. They imagine it to be all sorts of things...
and then create rules about what must be done to get there....rules
that are impossible to keep. Then when they realize how silly that is...
they make up a story about an old bearded man who sends his son to be tortured
and murdered to rescue them from their worthless rules.

 

Yes! Great question!!
IMO... the so called "God" of the Bible is a human creation....
imagined as a separate entity of some sort. That idea is a false assumption
to begin with. Therefore it is impossible for something to make sense
when it all started with human delusion in the first place.

 

While what you say is true - it has nothing to do with the point being made. This is about those who "believe" not those who don't. If one wants to claim Jesus as the path to salvation - fine.. but then why do these people despise the teachings of Jesus.

 

In my view, theists are not as close to the truth ( oops, that's a mighty vague word in philosophy ) as such sages as Siddartha, Lao Tzu, et al.

 

I don't think they actually "despise" the teachings of Jesus...do you?
They just make excuses for not abiding by them...
like their favorite saying..."nobody's perfect".

What I am suggesting is that...."those who believe" have simply misinterpreted,
or have been led (by their religions) to a false conclusion about what Jesus was pointing to.
IMO...it is not that they purposely do not follow His teachings...
but in fact,,,, they've never understood them in the first place.
And so I believe that is relevant to this topic.

 

I think so as well. but atheists are the exception, not the norm. Those saying they hear directly from their God and don't need holy books, prophets, etc, are also not the norm.

Millions, billions of people of various and conflicting religions do believe that various holy texts are the word of their Gods, instructions from their Gods, etc. Many also believe that their Gods send messengers, prophets, anoints messiah, clergy, etc. But this always appears to be humans conveying all of it rather than God making the individual believers know it.

I am curious why so many accept this without questioning it, or if they do question it, then what is it that satisfies them as an answer so they go along with it?

I am curious why there are so many organized religions with written doctrine, and preachers, and prophets, instead of all the believers believing their own personal thoughts on Gods, individually arrived to or thought to be personally conveyed to them by Gods (imagined or real).

From the outsider atheist perspective it is easy to explain (cultural programming, upbringing, etc), but from the theist's point of view, I am curious how it is thought of. Hence this thread.

 

The more I read from people on this thread, the more I realize most of you have no idea what the Bible says and are just making stuff up based on Roman Imperial mythology and secular Greek philosophy.

 

For the OP question it doesn't matter what the Bible says, only that it says something, and people consider it to be communication from God. The OP question also doesn't only apply to the Bible, but to all religious texts claiming to be communication from an all powerful God.

 

And that's where even the OP is wrong.

The Bible, itself, does not claim to be communication from God. Instead, it claims to be divinely inspired.

2 Timothy 3:16 NLT
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

Only the Quran claims to be communication from God. Its monologue is almost incomprehensible without the Hadith.

No other major religion relies on a particular book.

So, the OP wants everyone to talk about the Quran or does he also not know what the Bible is?

 

What pertaining to god has been revealed in the last 20 years. I must have missed it.

 

I get it.. you don't get it.

However, how else you gonna know how to live?

 

Which is exactly my point. That wouldn't be needed for an all powerful God. It is saying that God is using this Bible book to teach people what is true and what is right, instead of just having them know what is right. The book, being a book, is then interpreted in different ways, leading to different interpretations and different ideas on what God says is right.

And the OP isn't limited to books either, but also applies to prophets, etc (people claiming to know and speak for God speaking to others who they convince know less).
If these prophets truly speak for God, then why the middle messenger? Why can't, or why doesn't God speak for himself and make everyone know what he wants them to know?

Why are there so many different good faith understandings of what God wants people to known? Does he/it/she want us to all think he has different messages that conflict with one another?

How is he not directly responsible for the differing religious understandings, sects, religions, etc, and the conflict resulting therefrom?

 

What do you mean by "all-powerful"? Do you understand it in the Classical theism sense?

You do realize that the term "all-powerful" is not Biblical.

Not the purpose for the Bible. Not the purpose God had for humans either. At least, according to the Bible.

Most interpretations of the Bible are in agreement. There are a few things which people disagree on due to syncretism and the traditions developed because of it.

That being said, certain things are clearly listed as wrong in the Bible. There are actually very few. If you read the relationship between God and humans, God is very laissez-faire in his approach. But if you read the purpose behind the creation of human beings, this makes sense.

It didn't work out when God spoke directly. He spoke directly to Adam and Eve. Didn't work out. He spoke directly to Cain. Didn't work out. So, he started to inspire intermediaries and things went far better.

God tried speaking directly - it didn't work. In fact, many atheists say that if God spoke directly to them they would believe they went insane before believing in God.

There aren't. That's the key. For example, those who call themselves Catholics actually don't believe in the Bible. They believe in their tradition. Protestants believe in Classical Theism which is derived from Greek Philosophy. etc.

They all claim the Bible but they actually believe in something else. They are dishonest.

The Bible is clear in its message. There is no secret knowledge.

What are some things you think that Bible-believers disagree about?

 

Most Christians I have met think there God is all powerful and think the Bible is his word. If you are thinking from a more classical gnostic or polytheistic sense of God, with limited power (and possibly not benevolent towards humans too), that wouldn't apply to the OP.

How quote one above not contradict quote two+three? Did I misunderstand what you meant in para 1?

There are dozens of sects of Christianity, all of which get something different out of their book(s) and prophets.

It didn't work out? You mean they didn't clearly understand him? If so, then isn't that his fault if he created them and could have made them understand him?

Or do you mean they heard his message and understood it, but rejected it or turned against it? That would be something different and not applicable to the OP question. People turning against or rejecting God's directions could perhaps be a basis for God to judge them accordingly. But my point is there is no clear consensus among God believers on what the directions are or message is.

An all powerful God could avoid that easily, and simply make them understand they are not insane, God is real, God wants them to know X. And again, if you're response is that God isn't all powerful, then your concept of God isn't addressed in the OP.

But I didn't say the Bible. I said a message. They believe that tradition somehow comes from God. Book, prophet, whatever, and is an instruction or command or suggestion on how they ought to behave according to the almighty.

The point is it is not a direct communication from God himself, that makes people know and agree on what the message is. If God is indeed communicating, and is all powerful, he either doesn't want to be understood and intends all the conflict and confusion, or he is a very bad communicator (which conflicts with him being all powerful).

Some say certain passages are important and others not. Some say certain passages are allegory and other say they are literal. Some say it needs to be taken in historical context and doesn't apply today, and others say it transcends time and is always applicable.

People who say they base their worldview on the Bible or on Jesus (a prophet - or God in the flesh if you believe it, though God doesn't make everyone believe it) disagree with one another on a wide variety of claims about what God is supposedly telling them. And that's just within that one religion. Add to that the many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, ancients who believed in other Gods like the Norse or Egyptian pantheons, etc. So much disagreement amongst people earnestly seeking God(s) and God's message.

An actual all powerful being could have made everyone know the one actual true message from him, how to please him, how to get the best spot in the afterlife, if there is one, etc. Yet ... that's clearly not what this God (if there is one) chose to do. I have to wonder why. And for the religions that say God judges people based on their obedience or adherence to his message.... that seems incoherent if they never actually knew or understood what the message was.[/quote]

 

Most people who call themselves Christian haven't read the Bible nor believe in it.

Nope.

I'm speaking from the pure Biblical sense.

But you never answered my question. What do you mean by all-powerful?

Paul is saying that the Bible is useful for that purpose. At no point does Paul say God uses the Bible to teach people what is wrong and right.

Honest interpretations of the Bible.

I have talked to a few flat-earthers and they claim that the Bible says the Earth is flat. But is that an honest interpretation? No, it's not. They outright lie when they say they got that from the Bible. They know they are lying when they state this interpretation. They take their beliefs and force them onto the Bible. They do this because they know the Bible is important despite the fact that they bear false witness against it. Yes. They have a different interpretation of the Bible than I do but their interpretation is not an honest one.

This is a consistent theme in the Bible. And so, maybe you should just leave the Bible out of you OP if you don't want it discussed?

A clear consensus does exist among those who believe the Bible.

So can you list any specific honest and meaningful disagreements on what the Bible says?

The underlined part is the true part.

From my point of view, you're complaining about a God which doesn't exist. God reveals himself to everyone. The Bible is about God and his relationship to us. Did anyone have to tell you murder is wrong? Stealing is wrong? Did someone have to teach you that homosexuality is not wrong?

See. It's not rocket science. Occasionally, people pervert what God has already told them and so the Bible can be helpful to get people to return to proper fellowship. But claiming that you didn't know it was wrong to murder someone and steal their wife is just silly.

 

I would think that a self explanatory term. All powerful. Able to do anything. Having no limit on what one can do and having nobody else more powerful.

You are in the vast minority if you think its not a message from God, but now you make me curious, if it isn't that, then what's the point of it?

Ok... but how are we going to judge who is honest in their interpretation?

If I recall correctly, it comes from the "four corners of the earth" or whatever paragraph?

How do you know that? Maybe they are honestly mistaken?

The bible is relevant insofar as people consider it a message from God. If you don't, then it isn't, but most Christians do, so for them, it is.

Since you appear to be dismissing anything interpretation you disagree with as dishonest, no. But I'm not in agreement that they are dishonest. I think there are plenty of honest good faith people who disagree on what passages in the bible should be taken literally or figuratively, what is allegory, what is time specific and what is not. Should we suffer a witch do live? Should we stone adulterers and homosexuals to death? Or are those passages only applicable to the people at that time?

I'm not complaining. I'm looking for people's views (and you re sharing one, so I thank you for it). And I agree with you that this God does not exist, but I also see many people who appear to be honest who believe in such God that wants us to know something, and even who judges us on how we behave subject to that information, but they have yet to explain why they must get that message from anything but him making them know, and why they disagree with so many other honest believers in other understandings of God.

He doesn't reveal himself to honest atheists. Nor does he reveal himself as one and only God to good faith Hindus. Nor does he reveal himself as the Bible's particular sort of God to believers in other God(s), like the ancient Norse, Egyptian, etc. Nor does he reveal himself in the particular Christian way to honest Muslims. And on and on it goes.

I came to my own moral sense via empathy and a little bit of social contract and culture, just as I believe everybody does. But this isn't about me. I'm not a believer in a God with a message for us. So what I think is off topic to the OP.

I don't know that it is wrong to work on the sabbath, eat shellfish, wear mixed fibre clothing, eat food not slaughtered in a halal or kosher way, etc. There is plenty that the Bible and Quran both say that I don't know to actually be wrong whatsoever.