That was entirely too esoteric on my part, wasn't it? Sorry about that. I'm afraid you're going to have to ask me to shut the f**k up.
Back to the subject of sola fide and the freedom/bondage of the will, starring Desiderius Erasmus and Martin Luther:
Whether faith alone or works are necessary for getting to where you want to be in the terms interpretation by various popes who contradict each other tells me no one knows. It is unprovable. I put the idea against other related faiths to create context but you didnt like that. So what you are left with is a discussion with no possibility of a direction towards a conclusion. Which frankly is either the angels on a pin question or pointless. Or both. My issue isn't about convincing you of anything. It isnt about YOU. It is purely about the nature of your subject. Now if you come in here to convince others that you are right and to collect brownie points that is your purpose. Not mine. I am herecsim0ly to offer information when I think I can add something to the issue. Pool knowledge. Whether you take it on board or not is nor my concern. I am nor a fisher of souls or a missionary or an apostle or a chief mind bender. I also am here to learn. Others also have things to offer which I can either take on board or not. That is how I grow in my appréciation of the world. How I avoid staying in a tiny corner of it thinking it is all there is. Now I hope this is clear. I offer what I know. Whether you accept it is immaterial to me.
Why do you want to discuss something that was decided hundreds of years ago? And about something that is universal in scope. A universal God and any effort to find his nature involves...well...everyone of any faith.
Because it's interesting to me? What you're saying is like asking why would I like to talk about drills with a fellow engineer in the tool aisle of Home Depot and not talk about everything else in the inventory. And apparently you haven't been paying much attention because the issue remains undecided as the various answers show.
If this was decided 300 years ago there wouldn't be any disagreement about this, either here or anywhere else. FYI, we can discuss something esoteric AND something that is universal in scope. All you have to do is open a discussion thread about something universal in scope and you can excuse yourself from this discussion if you don't want to participate in it.
The name of the Father is given in the Bible .. and it is the council of Jesus to do the Fathers Will. You say you are sure that Satan knows God's name .. and who am I to gainsay that . but --since you know the name of that God .. but not any other .. perhaps that your Trinity .. Jesus - Satan - and her heinous the holy ghost.. Your claim that Jesus is the God of Abraham .. is made up ridiculous nonsense .. given you say you don't read the Bible much .. how on earth would you have the faintest idea the name of the God of Abraham. Regardless .. No -- Jesus is not the name of the God of Abraham ... Abraham did not worship a God named Jesus .. sorry to say ... albeit he did give tithes to one of the fore-runniers of Jesus .. an earlier prince of Peace. So -- big Bible Fail .. sad to say .. perhaps we could try a segway. A story you know .. or at least may have heard of .. since you don't read the book much... The three Magi - "hint" ---->>> from Persia .. the Priests who presided over the birth of Jesus ... What was the name of their God ?
Given the trinity and the everlasting permanence of god, I'm not so sure that this concern about names means as much as you claim. Zoroastrian faith (from Persia), came into its own in about 650 BCE shared many concepts with Abrahamic faith - God and Satan, 6 days creation, resurrection, judgement, heaven, hell, virgin birth (of Zoroaster), etc. There are people studying the precursors leading to the Abrahamic faiths. There are questions concerning how much came from Greece vs. Persia.
The issue was not in fact free will. The issue is whether faith alone without works, achieves salvation. Hence the thread title. That has been decided. It's like asking why talk about the existence of drills while standing in front of one.
There isn't disagreement . Every Pope has decided that faith alone does not get you a ticket to heaven. Even medieval monks knew that.
I appreciate your concern. But I am established in the faith. To me, his name is life. And he is more than gold and gems, even more than the worlds collective wealth, which is a dung heap in comparison, because it doesn't lend any gain to ones soul. But I honestly don't know the difference between Jesus Christ and God the Father in the spirit of the matter. And it doesn't really matter to me at this point in my life.
There's disagreement here in this forum and amongst the different denominations of the Christian faith. Of course, there is no disagreement within the RCC. The Council of Trent made sure of that over 500 years ago when it condemned the doctrine of sola fide. And believe it or not I actually agree with the observation you made earlier about Pope Benedict's statement:
Actually, the issue of free will is central to this dispute, hence the debate between Erasmus and Luther. The video I posted in #153 explains this to an extremely limited degree. Again, none of this has been universally decided, hence this thread.
Agreed. I don't fully understand this issue, BUT ... If one has no free will, then what the heck does it mean that some "correctly" believe and some don't? It seems weird to have a God picking and choosing whom to save from among beings who have no free will - and who mostly didn't even know about Christianity.
All for one - -and one for all -- a made up Trinity -for a made up God with no name - having no basis in scripture ... but, got this free pass from this fellow by the name of "Paul -Martin" - gonna give it to Jesus who presides over Judgement .. at the end of days -- and this pass gonna get me through the gate ... worth more than gold this pass. All good for you .. but still thought you would be a little curious about the God of the Magi - interesting God that one .. much better than YHWH from a belief standpoint .. .. which is why these things are important .. Does one go with YHWH .. or Marduk .. Chemosh or Hadad -- each has different attributes .. or do you go with someone else in dat Trinity you keep talking about -- you know .. the one with 3-Personages Who be the big daddy in your Trinity ? --- Personage numero Uno --- in the Line-up... Which came first .. the chicken or egg .. forgot the technical name used for the procession .. ohhh.. yes got it.. The Son Proceeds from the Father .. according to "Doctrine" .. so .. "Someone" is the Father .. and is it - Sataniel ? is that why you don't want to devulge name ? Tiamat ? Or - ... Is it the God of Abraham ? What was the name of that guy ? .. the creator God .. "The Father" "Chief" "The Supreme one" head of the Divine Council ... Or have you vacated the position.. your trinity becomming a duopoly .. the Spirit and Jesus squared .. an interesting concept to be sure are you not including the God of Abraham in your Trinity ?
What could possibly possess you to mock something you don't understand, when the eternal welfare of your soul could be in the balance? To know God is eternal life. Remember when life was forever when you were young, and you dabbled in tradition and were drawn into camaraderie, hobbies and understanding of the world. Then you turned around and looked and forever was gone. But you were surrounded by the trappings of life? Now from this routine you gauge the sublime and say it doesn't mesh. So you toss the sublime when it is your life that doesn't fit. You have gone away.
Not if you asked a Jehova's Witness. But regardless, you know that people use the terms E.T., or alien, to mean something very different, than when they say "angel." My words had been intended, for "people." But yes, adherents of ancient alien theory, readily point this out. While there are all sorts of ideas, floating within that general ideology, I count myself as a believer, in the base level article, of their truth: the Earth was most likely visited by extra terrestrials, in the distant past, who played some role in our evolution. I also am one who tends to believe that there are still "alien" hubs, if not more, beneath our oceans, & so forth. But as to more specific assertions, as to the aliens' purpose(s), I will quote my friend, Mr. Spock, and say, there is insufficient data to postulate, with any degree of certainty... Kind of like the deal with "heaven," is it not?
But you said this If one is in the wrong place, that means they are not welcome. And should leave. If one is in a place for discussion, they are NOT in the WRONG place.
Because the person being responded to, is not the only one to read a post. Also, not everyone who posts has their mind closed to other options. Closed minded has nothing to do with trying or not trying to change another's mind., it's about one being open to other possibilities because without absolute proof, there's nothing set in stone. One who thinks there opinion is the ONLY opinion is without a doubt closed minded. I never try to change someone's mind, but hopefully offer something different to think about, if one is NOT closed minded. Closed minded people will never consider another option or opinion.
What about 'it', is believed to be true? This thread is about an 'it', that is not understood. Sola fide or not sola fide. Is it true, or is it not true. It matters not, because all it is, is as belief. It's only true to those who believe. Or it's not true, to those who don't believe. No proof can be provided.
So then you are trying to change the minds of the people, participating in the thread-- same difference; I don't know why you cannot understand ("sigh") this uncomplicated point of Modernpaladin's: you are advocating your own perspective/interpretation of something, over or in place of that/those, of others; and what reason would you have to do this, if you did not hold out any possibility, that you might convince someone, of whatever it is you are arguing, or pointing out, to people who obviously lack your insight?
Who was mocking ? if you are mocked by your inability to understand your own belief system - how is that my problem ? What is it that I do not understand ? .. I asked you for the name of the God of Abraham ... the one in which you profess to believe .. but you don't know the name of your own God -- the one you profess to believe in .. and on this you would have us believe .. that knowing this God that you don't know . is eternal life.
I know naught from whence we claim .. I do not know who is to blame .. the sorry lot us humans be.. what kind of God could create such a thing as thee I don't atually blame the Big GOD .. look on her more as a scientist .. perhaps checking in on experiment from time to time .. but not interferring in general. Now these lesser Gods .. those of the ET Variety .. our ancestors say they come from the sky .. mix their genetic material with primative earthling (monkey-man) .. mix the "annunaki DNA" with Monkey man DNA to get the Adamu.. Now who you gonna believe .. our ancestors or those loony tune fundamentalists saying earth was created 6000 years ago and totally flooded over 2200 years ago.
