Something I have been thinking about.

I can see where you're getting that from but it doesn't really feel like that to me. It feels like something more then that.

 

Are you desiring that all of us should switch over to using emotions instead of reason and logic on this forum?

 

In the end though we only have other peoples accounts of what JC is supposed to have said and done, to my knowledge there are no actual writings of JC anywhere, so in reality it falls into three camps either you believe those writings to be correct and factual or you are skeptical or you don't believe those writings to be correct and factual.

If you are a follower of the first then the onus is on you to provide proof of the fact
If you are a follower of the third then until such proof is forthcoming you beliefs cannot be challenged.

In my opinion no.

 

Examples please,,? You are wrong. Religon is been with humans from the start.

reva

- - - Updated - - -

With all due respect that entire post is an poster child for a block-mono-mega non-squitter! Fictional character can be mentors. Think of the fictional Sherlock Holmes, not the best example but the first that comes to mind. The author that wrote about Holmes and his adventures and displayed thru’ his character what I am thinking about. Doyle created Holmes and Holmes gave us truths and advice that works. So even if God/jesus is fictional in your mind maybe you should not throw the baby out with the bath water. As I said there are many other reasons that your post somewhat reckless in a literary and even literal manner, but time is short. Maybe another consideration would open your eyes?


Reva

 

1) I did not say things did not matter before JC.
I said that before JC, the Jews saw God as ineffable, or too complex to be explained.

2) God immediately became the force behind Reality when Jesus said, "I am the Truth,"... (John 14:6)

 

No,...
I understand Christ was telling us that he, himself, represented the ideal we call Truth.

This makes sense, since Truth is the image of reality as Gen 1:26 says.
And,... as Reality unfolds, one frame at a time, Truth is born from Reality, like a son might be understood.

 

Seemingly, what you are attempting to do is to place God in a box that you have labeled as "reality". Unfortunately, 'reality' normally implies a direct relationship to the material world, thus in your attempt, you are trying to force God to be the equivalent of the material world.

 

The force behind Reality existed before the Big Bang, but it wasn't material.

It was the necessary Observer who had to be present to collapse the wave functions which then could materialize into the Cosmos.

But "Reality" is a moment by moment unfolding event within which all things are possible.
It is NOT material in itself, but a spirit-like set of three Forces at work.

 

I can accept that.

Well, I am not so certain regarding that "collapse the wave functions"... but I must ask who was that "necessary Observer" that was important enough to capitalize the word "observer"?

How can you in good conscience say that reality is not a material thing?

 

I too agree with the first statement by CD, with minimal reservations. I feel collapsing the wave function i.e. as in quantum superposition is inventive but speculative. I have good reason to say that CD's well thought our response was 'inventive' and 'speculative'. That reason is that quantum functions including the quantum foam etc were created AFTER T-0 (time zero). T-0 is when the big bang ’banged’. In fact all the physical forces including the nuclear strong and weak force, all energies, all matter, and space time were created after T-0 according to current big bang cosomological theory. So what ever caused the big bang to bang was nothing known to science or even science theory. It was fully divested of physical tangibility and completely atemporal. Its also more logical to assume it was intelligent and conscious i.e. sentient than an unguided deistic force or a natural force unknown to current science. I believe it was God, for many reasons, reasons that have empirical overtones. All have been arrived by logical conclusions unfettered with a radical pro-science emotions. Also my conclusions are devoid of an anti-God agenda, something that many near worshipers of western Darwinian positive* science can claim. (* as contrasted to metaphysical science that Gödel and others championed at he turn of the century).

As for the truth question I feel the ultimate truth is how the physical and super-physical universe (S-PU, ie the realm of God) works. Reality is a misnomer, there is no such thing if we want to be brutally precise. Or maybe if reality does exist it like time is relative as in Einstein’s special relativity. Only the sentient individual could claim knowledge of reality for there is no universal reality. Everyone’s reality is different even if in ‘nanomeasurements‘.

reva

 

In spite of all you said above, Reality is the almighty to which man (and life in general) MUST bow down to.
Man must even work hard to adapt into the future with it, or suffer extinction of our species, a second "death."

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

It is true that the Big Bang appeared at T-0.

Energy existed without need of Space to hold it at T-0 time because if Time had been ticking that Energy would have been Power and doing Work.

If you follow my reasoning here, you will see that Energy converted into Matter and the Space/time necessary for it at T-0+.

This took place as Einstein had said, E = mC^2.
All the Natural Laws we know are a function of Energy, and can be derived from formulas that pertain to it.

 

Oops I cut away the first part of my post ...corrected below'

My eschatology differs much from your take on end time theology (if it is end time theology) or how God interacts with us. Your ideas do seem familiar, but its been a long time since I have been on a campus So, before I expand on what I believe the second death is and how it relates to our discussion, may I ask where, or how you derive your theology ?

reva

 

As you can see your ideas are not in keeping with current theory;


 Astronomy 162:
Introduction to Stars, Galaxies, & the Universe
Prof. Richard Pogge, MTWThF 9:30

Lecture 38: "The First Three Minutes"
Readings: Chapter 29, sections 29-1 through 29-5
Key Ideas
Physics of the Early Universe
Informed by experimental & theoretical physics
Later stages confirmed by observations
The Cosmic Timeline
Unification of the forces just after the Big Bang
Separation of the forces as the Universe expands & Cools
Inflationary Epoch explains smoothness & flatness
Emergence of Matter beginning at t=10-6 seconds
Recombination & the emergence of the visible Universe

The Big Bang's Hot Past
The Universe Today:
Today the Universe is low density, dark, and rather cool.
We see that it is continuing to expand
The Universe 14 Gyr Ago:
The Universe was smaller, denser, & hotter
The Universe was Opaque and filled with radiation (photons)
How far back into the Universe's past can we go?

Binding & Loosing
Binding Energy:
Energy needed to unbind (break up) matter.
Can define a Binding Temperature:
Temperature equivalent to the binding energy
Matter at this temperature "melts" (unbinds)
Example:
In massive star cores, nuclei melt at temperature of ~10 Billion K.
Typical Sizes & Binding Energies
Size Binding Energy
Atoms ~10-10 meters 103 K
Nuclei ~10-14 meters 1010 K
Protons & Neutrons ~10-15 meters 1011 K
Quarks ~10-18 meters 1013 K


The Fundamental Forces of Nature
Gravitation:
Long-Range Force, weakest in Nature
Electromagnetic Force:
Long-Range, 1039 times stronger than gravity
Weak Nuclear Force:
Range <10-17 meters, 1028 times stronger than gravity
Strong Nuclear Force:
Range <10-15 meters, 1041 times stronger than gravity

Unification of the Forces
Electro-weak Force:
EM & Weak forces unify at high energies (1015K)
Verified in particle accelerator experiments.
Grand Unified Theory (GUTs):
Strong + Electroweak Force.
Predicted, but no experimental basis (yet?)

"Dreams of a Final Theory"
What about Gravity?
Gravity should unify with the GUTs force at very high energies.
Much higher than in any possible accelerator we might build.
However, these energies could occur in the Early Universe.
Problem: We have no quantum theory of Gravity!

The Cosmic Timeline
Physics gives us a framework within which to describe the events of the Big Bang from the earliest phases to the present.
Particle accelerators probe matter at states similar to some of these early phases.
Astronomers can look for the evidence of these early phases in the present Universe (e.g., Cosmic Background, primordial amounts of deuterium & helium)
History of the hot early phases of the Big Bang imprints itself upon the visible Universe.

The Planck Epoch
Before t=10-43 seconds, immediately after the Big Bang (t=0):
All 4 forces unified into a single Superforce
1 force rules all of physics
We cannot say much else about the time before this, as we as do not yet have a quantum theory of gravity to guide us.

The Grand Unification Epoch
At t=10-43 sec, T=1032 K:
Gravity separates from the Superforce
Strong & Electroweak Forces unified into the GUTs force.
2 forces rule physics: Gravity & the GUTs force
The Universe at this phase is a hot, dense particle soup of quarks, antiquarks, & photons in equilibrium with each other.

The Inflationary Epoch
At t=10-35 sec, T=1027 K:
Strong Force separates from the GUTs force
EM and Weak forces are still unified
3 forces rule physics: Gravity, Strong & Electroweak forces.
The rapid separation of the Strong Force from the GUTs Force triggers a rapid inflation of the Universe.

The Inflationary Universe
Universe grows exponentially by a factor of about 1043 in size between 10-36 to 10-34 seconds:
The expansion greatly slows down (back to normal) after Inflation.
Inflation helps to explain why the Universe is so smooth and flat:
Smooth: Cosmic Background Radiation is smooth to 1 part in 105
Flat: current observations suggest W0=1

Four Forces at Last!
At t=10-12 sec, T=1015 K:
Electroweak force separates into the Electromagnetic & Weak forces.
All forces are now separate.
4 forces rule physics: Gravity, Strong, Weak, & Electromagnetic
Conditions now become right for matter to exist separate from photons, instead of as a hot soup of matter and photons in equilibrium.

Quark Freeze-out
At t=10-6 sec, T=1013 K:
Free quarks combine into hadrons (primarily protons & neutrons)
Equilibrium between particle-antiparticle pairs and photons
No more free quarks in the Universe.
Matter as we would recognize it today begins to emerge.

Nucleon Freeze-out
At t=0.01 sec, T=1011 K:
Protons & neutrons decouple from photons and exist as free particles.
electrons & positrons in equilibrium with photons.
neutrinos & nucleons in equilibrium
Free neutrons are stable during this epoch.

Neutrino Decoupling
At t=1 sec, T=1010 K:
Neutrinos decouple from matter and radiation, and stream out into space
These form a Cosmic Neutrino Background (predicted but not yet observable with current technology)
Free neutrons are no longer stable:
Decay into protons, electrons, and neutrinos
Left with about 1 neutron for every 5 protons.

The Epoch of Nucleosynthesis
At t=3 minutes, T=109 K:
Fusion of protons and the remaining free neutrons:
Formation of 2H (Deuterium) & 4He
End up with ~75% 1H, 25% 4He
Also end up with traces of 2H, 3He, Li, Be, B
We cannot observe this epoch directly, but we can look for the products of primordial nucleosynthesis in the present-day Universe, as described in the previous lecture.

The Epoch of Recombination
At t=300,000 years, T=3000 K:
Electrons & nuclei combine into neutral atoms:
Universe becomes transparent
Photons stream out into space
Origin of the Cosmic Background Radiation.
This represents the earliest epoch of the Universe we can observe directly using photons.
Previous to this, the Universe is opaque to photons.

The "Dark Ages" and Emergence of Galaxies
After the end of Recombination but before the first generation of stars formed is the Epoch known as "The Dark Ages":
No visible or infrared light because there were no stars ("dark")
The hydrogen and helium in the Universe are neutral
Universe is mostly opaque to UV photons because of absorption by neutral H and He.
Time of rapid evolution:
Matter density drops by factor of ~10 Million.
Matter starts organizing itself into large-scale structures via gravitational collapse.
At t= 500 Myr - 1 Gyr, T=30 K:
First generation of stars form, ending the "Dark Ages"
Quasars first form
First heavy metals made by the first supernovae
Present: t=14 Gyr, T=2.725 K
Galaxies, stars, planets, us...
Metals from supernovae of massive stars.

What about the Beginning?
Our physics can not yet ask questions about times earlier than the start of the Planck Epoch (t=10-43 sec).
The current frontier appears to be before the Electroweak Epoch (t=10-12 sec), during the period of rapid Inflation.
This will be the astrophysics theory of the 21st Century (or maybe the 22nd ...)

Note:
The title of this lecture is borrowed from the title of an outstanding popular-science book by physicist Steven Weinberg (who shared the 1989 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on Electroweak Unification). This book and Weinberg's Dreams of a Final Theory will greatly reward reading by students who have taken Astronomy 162.

Return to [ Unit 5 Index | Astronomy 162 Main Page ]

Updated February 28
Copyright &#65533; Richard W. Pogge, All Rights Reserved.





reva

 

What you don't seem to realize is Matter is Energy and Energy arranged properly is Matter.

Look at a single Hydrogen atom and forget for a moment it naturally exists as H2.

Hydrogen has an Atomic Nucleus of a Single Hadron of Proton.....and this Atomic Nucleus is surrounded by a Single Electron in an Orbital Field.

The Electron is a Quantum Particle/Wave Form of Energy and the Proton is an Atomic Particle having Mass.

The Electron also has a very small micro-mass....a Photon does not have mass.

But the Atomic Nucleus of Hydrogen or any other Atom's Atomic Nucleus whether it only has a single Proton or many Protons and Neutrons within the Atomic Nucleus does not change the fact all Protons and Neutrons are COMPLETELY COMPRISED OF QUANTUM PARTICLE/WAVE FORMS OF ENERGY such as Quarks, Gluons, Leptons, Higgs-Bosons...etc.

AboveAlpha

 

NOTE

Sorry for the bulk post however I am in a hurry, I can highlight the part that is relevant Sunday am, but the information is the very best I have seen describing the first three min of creation.

reva

 

That is silly.

Reality is whatever corresponds directly to Truth.

We can not have one without having the other:

John1:1
In the beginning was the word (Truth: [see John 14:6]), and the (one) word, (Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (Reality or Father of Nature), and the (one) word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (indistinguishable from Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 He, (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]), was with God, (Reality), in the beginning, (by definition).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (Truth), not even ONE thing came into (man's mental model of the external world of his) existence.

 

NO....this above is silly.

AboveAlpha

 

I read it in the Amplified Theistic Evolution Bible found at http://kofh2u.tripod.com/

 

Not exactly true.
Energy can be TRANSMUTED into Matter.
And, Matter can be TRANSMUTED into Energy.

One is not the other, unless some transition takes place to make that happen.

 

Uhhh...even if we were not looking inside of the Hadrons there still exists Electrons in Electron Orbital Fields surrounding the Atomic Nucleus of Protons and usually Neutrons.

Electrons are ENERGY.

AboveAlpha

 

No.
This run down on the Big Bang supports what I have told you.

"The Planck Epoch
Before t=10^43 seconds, immediately after the Big Bang (t=0):"

This was the moment of the transmutation from only Energy into Matter and Space/time.

 

I hope everybody believes in the truth. Most of us don't have to capitalize it, however.

 

No, electrons have weight, (mass), which energy does not.
Electrons are what is called "Leptons."

 

A truth is one item which does not require capitalization.

But Truth, as a perfection or ideal, which means all things together that are true, should be capitalized.