Tell me the numbers are not inflated

Does a medical examiner have a good faith reason for believing that Covid-19 was a causal factor in their death?

 

Still won't respond? That's weak.

 

I agree, I was emulating you to highlight that.

 

There is bad data on both sides of the coin. It is a massive pandemic caused by a novel virus for which we had almost zero data before this year. Mistakes are going to happen and some deaths will be mistakenly counted while some deaths are going to be missed. On the whole, the data supports the assertion that we are undercounting.

But at the end of the day, the medical experts and statisticians are still looking at all of the data and telling you that this virus is a deadly pandemic. Adjust accordingly.

 

My assertion is wrong? I quoted the headline and linked you an article.

If you would like to take your feelings about why those hospitals which are presently running out of resources should not worry about the near future, please do so directly.

 

You agree that your response was weak? Interesting tactic. But let's see if you can respond now:

During a pandemic, when you have a novel virus that affects the body is new and unpredictable manners, it makes very little sense to claim that covid-19 is not a causal factor in a death when the evidence as to the primary cause of death is ambiguous. And even when you have information as to the primary cause of death, it is very, very rare that you can only have one cause of death. A covid-19 death is any death where a medical examiner determines that covid-19 likely played a causal role in the death of that individual.

For other infectious diseases, like influenza, we use mathematical modeling to estimate the number of dead in a given season. If you counted Influenza deaths in the same manner as Covid-19 deaths, i.e. Influenza is listed on the death certificate as a causal factor, then the single deadliest year from the Influenza killed around 15,500 people. If you used mathematical modeling to estimate Covid-19 deaths by, for example, comparing the all-causes of deaths for the areas hardest hit by Covid-19 against the averages for those same places and times of year, you will find - across the board - that the number of all causes deaths in those areas is significantly greater than the average even AFTER you account for the announced Covid-19 deaths.

In other words, to go back to your Thread Topic, the numbers are not inflated. In fact, they are very likely undercounted.

 

LOL... You produced as evidence. It is your source, and the article doesn't support they hysteria of the headline. Perhaps you should have read the article to discover this before being embarrassed by it...

 

I guess the question is, how many relatively healthy people is covid killing. How many are simply obese and/or unhealthy. And how many are already very ill from other disease. Has humanity become so reliant on all our advances in science and medicine that we have become too sickly to survive a novel virus.

 

So why purposefully mistake the facts here? MEs aren't making that calculation. These aren't ambiguous deaths. What is happening is folks are being lazy about attributing deaths because it was easier to say, WuFlu than not. It removes a lot of the followup, it speeds up the process of getting folks who have died out of the facility.. there are A LOT of reasons that folks in these facilities are feeling overwhelmed that have participated in over counting these deaths. But they are still obviously overcounting. And similarly we now know because of data auditing that the number of positive cases is also being largely overstated in the data. And yet, that doesn't trouble you. Why ?

 

There is nothing new about the way this works.

This is how they've been counting deaths since this started. And with good reason.

If people had all of these pre-existing conditions, but didn't die until they were sick with COVID-19, it's safe to assume that COVID is the cause of death because it exacerbates those co-morbidities.

If you have a heart problem, and COVID-19 causes you to have a fatal heart attack, COVID is the cause of death with the heart problem as a co-morbidity.

There is no scam here. This is how doctor's would have listed cause of death no matter what disease it was. If it caused the event that kills you, it's the cause of death. If you have an auto-immune disease and you're on immune-suppressents, you now have a weakened immune system. If you catch a disease that kills you, even though it was only able to because of your weakened immune system, you still died from the disease with the auto-immune issue as your comorbidity.

 

There is a lot of evidence to suggest that you are on the right path there. There is also another path that suggests that given the nature of how medicine has elevated themselves in the culture that they are enjoying a moment of need at the expense of honesty perhaps to further burnish their status and elevation. Fear breeds action, and scared doctors and hospitals clamoring for more federal funding to cover the losses from not being able to supply other medical services seems to be just as obvious.

 

They are even counting hospice deaths as COVID deaths (and without testing for COVID.)

The desire to inflate the numbers is shameful and is leading people on both sides of the aisle to be mistrustful of the information we're being given. Inexcusable.

 

I personally know a nurse who works, about eight miles from me, in the geriatric ward of a hospital. She says watching people die from this is something unique and horrifying.

She's horrified by what's happening, and is just in complete shock at how many people actually believe this is a hoax. She just shakes her head when asked about all the people claiming the numbers are fudged. The people who refuse to wear masks are just plain pissing her off.

And, she is 100% in favor of opening almost completely up, as long as people can be trained to wear masks, practice hygiene, take it seriously, etc.

You can only believe they are making it up if you believe that a major cover-up by millions of people, all across the world, is possible. Pro tip - keeping a secret between three friends is not easy. Try it with millions of people.... who don't know each other .... who all have different motivations, morals & abilities.

Sigh.


Now - I need to see one single credible piece of evidence that someone went off a cliff and was listed as a covid death. I just need ONE, but it has to be credible.

 

Reason 9,235 why schools should not be under control by the feds. A topic for a different thread, but this angers me. Local people need to decide what's best.

Maybe the town of Lorida, FL, with 2,000 people can open school, but Broward & Miami-Dade absolutely should not.

 

Do you know hospitals are going bankrupt and furloughing workers because they have no money? Why let facts get in the way of reality though. I guess some lady who you bumped into at the store is more reliable.

 

It's kinda funny how the economy improves under Trump, but people credit Obama because of the previous trend. But if corona tanks the economy, they blame Trump rather than the virus. Similarly, a heart patient trending down from heart disease, who then contracts the virus and dies. The virus is credited or signaled the cause. But if a stressful event had caused the heart attack, it would be written up as a heart attack because the persons heart was so frail. The continuity of judgment seems subjective to bias. This leads me to be suspicious about the corona death findings, especially because of the words from the woman in the video in the opening post.

 

Well said. I'm getting pretty nauseated by the conspiracy crowd. I just think I'm going to start responding to them with, "Yes, the moon landing happened and the earth is not flat."

Screaming that the flu kills 60,000, then claiming COVID is being over counted makes them sound silly. I wonder if they are being intentionally obtuse or if they literally have no idea how annual flu deaths are calculated.

I agree that we are under reporting, probably by quite a lot.

 

Your irrelevant economy silliness aside, nobody on team denial can explain there are so many more deaths above average this year.

It's odd, too - you'd think with so many fewer cars on the road there would be fewer accidents, (there are,) yet average deaths is still higher.

So. Weird.

Interesting, eh? Lots of extra people falling off cliffs this year?

 

It's obvious. Liberals are telling their bodies to have strokes, heart attacks and respiratory complications just to make Trump look bad!

 

The words from the woman in the video in the opening post are a short clip, taken out of context. I already provided you some additional context - directly from her - that should have assuaged this notion that significant numbers of people are being counted as covid-19 deaths despite dying by gunshot or traffic accident.

But in regards to heart patients dying and whether they should be counted as covid-19 deaths, the answer is almost certainly yes. Covid-19 creates heart damage in a significant percentage of individuals. If you have heart conditions before your Covid-19, then you have a comorbidity, which means that Covid-19 is more likely to kill you.

 

The likelihood that a young, healthy person will die from this virus is very low. The likelihood that a young, healthy person will suffer significant harm from this virus is slightly higher, but still low.

But make no mistake, the list of individuals who have pre-existing conditions and thus at greater risk of significant harm or death from this virus is a huge percentage.

 

Prove the bolded. Find anything to support the assertion that a significant number of "non-ambiguous deaths" are being misapplied to Covid-19.

 

They plan to open school in 3 weeks here in my Fl city of 8,000. We have a fairly high case load, I think that incredibly insane and I hope the idiots change their minds. Think it's high now? DeSoto county.

 

You're conflating two issues.

The inflation of COVID death numbers is a separate topic from "the flu". We are discussing the inflation of COVID death numbers. Which is not to say that COVID is not serious, or that COVID deaths don't matter ---- the problem is the way the numbers are being manipulated, for political reasons and financial gain, which is making it so nobody on either side of the aisle really trusts them any more.

Whether 1 person dies from COVID or 1 million people die from COVID, I want the actual numbers. I don't want people bumping up the numbers to push a political narrative, or in hopes of increasing funding for their hospitals, or any other nefarious reason. I just want the truth. I think that is all most of us want. (Except the *******s who live for politicization, division, and bullsh*t ---- and there are a lot of them in the media and in DC.)

The school issue is a complex one. It might even merit its own thread.

 

It should be 100% a local decision. My sister's town has had almost no activity - they can open their 2-3 schools.

Our son has one semester HS left. He will NOT be going to the classroom.