Tennessee woman only spent 1 year in prison after performing her own abortion on 24 week baby

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by kazenatsu, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A Tennessee woman only ended up spending a little over a year in prison after performing her own do-it-yourself abortion on her 24 week gestation baby.

    A Tennessee woman jailed for more than a year after trying to use a coat hanger to abort her 24-week-old fetus pleaded guilty on Monday to one felony count in exchange for her immediate release from jail.

    The woman, Anna Yocca, 32, sought medical care at a hospital after attempting the at-home abortion in September 2015, according to National Advocates for Pregnant Women, an advocacy group that helped with her defense. She was later arrested and was initially charged with attempted murder. Under an agreement reached with prosecutors, she pleaded guilty this week to attempted procurement of a miscarriage and was given credit for time served.

    Her case has alarmed abortion-rights advocates.​

    Woman Accused of Coat-Hanger Abortion Pleads Guilty to Felony - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (January 2017)

    This woman killing her 24 week baby.

    Do you have any idea how far along the unborn baby is at 24 weeks?
    A few of these little ones have even ended up surviving after coming out at 24 weeks.

    So why didn't this woman spend longer in prison?

    Because 24 weeks is so close to the cusp.
    Roe versus Wade disingenuously set a viability standard, where according to that court precedent (or at least the most straightforward interpretation), the woman gets the right to abort if the fetus would not be able to survive at that point if taken away from the womb.
    It wouldn't be very legally consistent if a woman was punished for committing a homicide at 24 weeks, but absolutely no punishment at 23 weeks.

    Four months after this woman was released from jail, the state passed a 20-week abortion limit into law.
    (Before that, the state had a special law that would automatically adjust the limit to as low as a federal court would allow, so it was a little bit unclear where exactly the limit was, although it was generally recognized at that time that a state could set the limit at 23 weeks)
    The newer 20-week ban is enforceable.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  2. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    most agree 26 weeks is the cut off, except in the case of the health of the potential mother

    http://www.slate.com/id/2120872/
    "a member of President Bush's Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn't possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead."
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I thought most agree that 24 weeks was the cut off.
    Did that later get bumped up or something?


    I am more than highly skeptical of that claim.

    I won't argue about this with you here, but that strikes me as an outrageous lie, which most people in the public would have no background reference to know if that even could sound reasonable.

    For example, thumb sucking begins at 11 weeks.
    I'm no expert, but that seems to me to require some coordinated body movement involving adjusting to sensory input, that could not merely just be "sea slug"-like reflexes.

    Some studies have demonstrated signs from as early as 13 weeks that fetuses may feel pain.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "Consciousness" is also very subjective thing and is difficult to pin down.
    It could be debated whether a newborn baby is truly "conscious". What does that actually mean? What are the criteria?

    We also know that even if humans happen to be unconscious, they can still have inherent value.
    Human brains can be capable of consciousness and harbor memories, even if they are in a state of unconsciousness. (A patient who was thrown into a temporary coma from an auto accident, for example)
    Obviously a fetus in the womb wouldn't have had a chance to build up many memories yet.


    If you want to see a fetus born at 24 weeks, see here:
    'Tiniest baby boy' ever sent home leaves Tokyo hospital
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  5. joesnagg

    joesnagg Well-Known Member

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    While I'm personally uncomfortable with abortion, I support a woman's right to have one within reasonable and scientific restrictions. However, it seems SOME proponents won't be satisfied unless women may toss their unwanted progeny away on dung-heaps like the ancients.
     
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Oh? Who are they? Can you give an example??
     
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  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    "a member of President Bush's Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn't possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead."

    UH, do YOU have better credentials then those quoted? NO.

    Debunked studies.

    And what are you trying to say....a fetus sucks it's thumb so suddenly it has more rights than the woman it's in??

    Ridiculous...
     
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  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    8 weeks, 24 weeks, it's all the same to most of the pro-choicers in this forum.


    If I'm wrong, please one of you other pro-choicers step in and correct me on this, tell me you're squeamish about allowing abortions for no good reason at 24 weeks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's the time of legal abortions...so?





    Feeeeelings don't enter into it...AND there are NO abortions after 24 weeks for no reason.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's another example of your statements with ambiguous meanings.

    When a normal person looks at that, they would think what you are saying is that there are no abortions after 24 weeks for valid good reasons.
    But when you say that, you could have in mind any reason whatsoever the individual woman chooses, even if those reasons might appear stupid or totally unjustified to most normal people.

    So, depending on what you actually meant by that statement, I have a suspicion you could have been being disingenuous.

    A lot of the time, I feel like I am just engaging in stupid semantic arguments with you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    You're grasping again in another of your failed threads...I always know you're at a loss when you start with the , "Semantics/disingenuous/semantics/disingenuous..blah, blah,blah"
     
  12. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    Babies cannot be aborted. That 1 year is an example of why the next will not seek medical care.

    When you say "enforceable" how does law enforcement know someone aborted their pregnancy if they don't go to a hospital?
     
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  13. Indlib

    Indlib Well-Known Member

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    Good question. I expect the party of small government will have federal pregnancy registration. Probably also a federal "pregnancy police" that investigates pregnancies that never ended in an actual birth. Probably a menstrual cycle reporting process. You know, all the usual small government stuff.
     
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  14. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    Good point. Just like the party that claims to value a woman's right to her own body changes their tune when she wants to carry a gun to protect her body from rapists and murderers.
     
  15. Indlib

    Indlib Well-Known Member

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    Well, neither of the main parties fully supports the 2nd but that aside, I live in a democratic run state and can carry so not sure what state you are referring to.
     
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and most republicans

    http://www.slate.com/id/2120872/
    "a member of President Bush's Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn't possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead."
     
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  17. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    I live in the Dems petri dish, Los Angeles, California.
     
  18. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Well-Known Member

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    So she admitted to killing someone even though that the person never existed?
     
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What party is that ?

    Any woman can get and own a gun....except if they're felons or mentally disturbed.....as it should be.

    I know women who have guns and NO ONE HAS EVER TRIED TO TAKE THEM AWAY.....

    So prattle on about something that really has nothing to do with abortion....you haven't made a point yet...
     
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  20. Indlib

    Indlib Well-Known Member

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    In WA myself.

    Pregnant women can't conceal carry in California?
     
  21. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not in Los Angeles. Only cops, judges, politicians, and criminals carry guns here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  22. Indlib

    Indlib Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you answered my question. Allow me to rephrase.

    Can pregnant women legally buy a gun and conceal carry in L.A.?
     
  23. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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  24. Indlib

    Indlib Well-Known Member

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    Although your claim is not entirely accurate, it does seem they are taking liberty with the "good cause" definition in some counties. Very frustrating.

    Well I guess based on your original response, we will now go full circle on our small chat.

    The criteria to CCW in LA reminds me of unconstitutional abortion laws in red states.
     
  25. Doofenshmirtz

    Doofenshmirtz Well-Known Member Donor

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    A few hundred citizens out of 10,000 000 get a CCW. How much more accurate do you need?

    Dems are trying to make Covid vaccine mandatory in CA. It starts with first responders and will likely be required for kids if they want to go to public school. Lets not pretend Democrats give a damn about protecting a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

    Anyway, I agree with you on abortion laws.
     
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