The bible is written in such a way

If theists live deluded lives of fantasy for believing in a crutch God, how are these atheists any different? Why pretend 'morality!' and 'meaning!' when that worldview has no place for such platitudes?

Reverse that. What morality is there in believing in a god when that morality depends on the god/religion you believe in. Your morality is no better than mine. It depends on what you believe in.

The fact that so many atheists respond with, 'we're moral! We have purpose and meaning for our existence!', belies their stated beliefs.. they become what they accuse theists of: needing a crutch.. unable to face the hard reality of an amoral, meaningless universe, they make it up and pretend their lives have significance.

So a religion that condoned slavery, condones sending people to hell for not believing, that slaughtered thousands to enforce Christianity, or Islam, or any other religion is moral.

There is no morality in religion. There is only belief in what a specific god might demand.

 

Agreed. People imagine all manner of scenarios to appease the longings and emptiness in their souls. Lies and deceptions are common in this world.

It seems to me, that there IS a Truth, about the universe.. origins, life, matter, and a supernatural dimension. Believing things about this Reality does not change it.

The difficulty for the seeker of Truth, is disseminating truth from lies. Most people, it stands to reason, are content with their Indoctrination.. what they were drilled with in school, culture, or other influences. Confused by the flood of lies and falsehoods, how are they to discern truth, from the deluge of disinformation?

Can it be possible to know the Truth about this universe? Where can one look, for these insights?

 

The argument is basis for morality, not a contest over whose morality is better..

I'll repeat:

In a logical exercise, you assume either premise, then arrive at the conclusion. Morality can ONLY exist in a God made universe, IF you assume He imbedded these moral codes in His Creation. In a godless universe, there is no Embedder, and any 'morality' are just human constructs.. platitudes to manipulate and control.

In a godless universe, there is no morality ANYWHERE. Human manipulators can kill, pillage, plunder, or do whatever they can, and nobody can fault them. The platitudes of religion, or the decrees of man are the same thing.. human constructs for manipulation.

How can there be righteous indignation over human atrocities, when power is the only arbiter of morality, in a godless universe?

 

Reality is a state of mind. Seekers of Truth? What is truth? Mystic Jews will tell you one thing. To Tibetan mystics Truth is another. Seek as much as you wish. All you will find is what you want to find - a 'Truth' that will satisfy your mind.

I don't know your personal life but if you find your ldea of truth, what good will that be to you, or anyone, after your death.

Just because you disbelieve, does not make it so. Just because you have not experienced God and the supernatural does not make it unreal. Your lack of experience with the supernatural realm only exposes your own limitations.

That's an assumption on your part, and completely wrong. I quite believe in things considered 'supernatural'. Some are explainable - others not yet.

Truth and reality will always be the world in which we live - whatever any religion might say.

 

If you are truly looking for God.
You are not going to find him in a book.

 

People can live morally without God.
We just need to evolve.

It seems the Gods are the problem.

 

Excuse me if you've answered this before but I'm not going to read the entire thread. What is a "necessary being"?

 

A beautiful lady

 

What gods? What morality? In a truly godless universe, there are no gods, morality, or purpose. Everything is a human construct.. a fantasy to manipulate people.

If you posit a God, or supernatural Cause for the universe, that MIGHT imply morality and/or purpose, for our existence.

Morality and purpose are possible, in a God made universe, they are absurd platitudes, in a godless one.

 

It seemed reasonable, since you attack and denigrate Christianity and the bible, just like a militant internet atheist.

So, you believe in the supernatural, just not the 'Christian!' flavor? Your opposition to Christianity is for a competing worldview? Is that not just an expression of religious bigotry and intolerance?

 

You have it backward. In a divine universe, God elevates man to the highest level. In a godless universe, nothing is a human construct, man is just another living thing of no greater value than a sponge.

 

Interesting view, Bricklayer. I believe that most people spend most of their lives searching for answers, seeking a picture or understanding of life that makes it seem sensible. This goes on indefinitely, and most people never find a complete answer. Most become embedded with a belief that they feel is closest to providing some kind of foundation, however flawed. The reliance on that belief can be anything from casual to extreme. I found religions to have fragments of truth and value, but were not viable bodies that could provide understanding of the whole picture- the conflicts are endless, much defied common logic, and religions made so many justifications for exceptions to itself I simply couldn't find what I considered a guide to life there. If you will bear with me, I'll share the way I found my answers, principles that have become my life guide.

I always felt as a young man that the rules seemed to be constantly changing, they were unreasonably variable. I wanted to find the rules that didn't change; the core elements of the picture, and it was a driving motivation that never went away. While it took me 20 years of objective searching, I did find that- and of course, it's right under our noses and always has been. It's not that the fundamental principles are difficult to find- it's that we have thrown so much trash on the table that they are buried beneath hundreds of thousands of counterfeit values. It's like having a three-piece picture puzzle that shows the entire picture you need to know, but with thousands of parts in the same box that have nothing to do with the picture though we are taught they are important parts of it. Impossible to put them all together of course, thus our beliefs are always ambiguous and conflicted. Like you- I found a lot of guidance in scientific principles.

The first step is to realize that all those parts are part of the real picture. Of course, the tough question is how do we separate the various rules and identify the ones that actually control the picture? if one were to use some conventions of science, it's easy to understand that there are two kinds of rules, which I will call fundamental principles (concepts that never change and have always existed) and variables (concepts that change, and have not always existed. It struck me that man himself is a variable. Obviously any principle that defines the way life works cannot be a variable, and therefore cannot be man-made. Such principles must be consistent, work the same in any place at any time for any person. So- where to look for these principles? Obviously, nature; not man.

Imagine that you had a chance to visit another world, where thousands of citizens thrive and has thrived for millions of years, and all sharing the same space- a world that has no government, no police, no psychiatrists, no religions, no drug addictions- where they were not using up the natural resources, not trashing their planet nor poisoning it. Incredible complexity along with incredible harmony. That was the earth- before man came along. But if you could still visit that place, see the harmony of life on that phenomenal scale working flawlessly- see it first hand- what would you ask yourself?

Parts of that world do still exist. Isolated pockets of perfection, still nearly as pristine as they were a million years ago. I had the privilege of discovering this, and I became addicted to the total balance and harmony of life there- and I was jealous; envious, intensely curious. In that place, the only trash is what you have brought with you in your own mind, so there is a stark contrast between what you see and what you think you know about life. The distinction and conflict is very powerful- but so is that deeply embedded trash. I have been there and watched hundreds of times, and I always asked myself the same question- What do they know that we don't know?
There's an old oriental proverb that says "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear". One day in that place, the teacher did indeed appear.

What that proverb really means is that the answer you seek is always within view; it is our inability to see past the trash we have accepted into our minds that makes the answer invisible. Once you can see it, things change very rapidly. Twenty years looking for it, and in one moment- everything falls into place. Everything. Took me a few days to distill basically, a year to learn how to totally understand and live by it, but that was the pinpoint where it all came together. I was 38. Since then, for 39 years, I've lived by three fundamental principles and known how to understand and cope with the endless variables that man creates. Today, I can say that I am not religious, because I cannot believe in a "god". However I do believe totally in a higher power- the one who makes those fundamental principles, which is- Mother Nature. I see it as feminine, and a teacher. You don't pray to her for help; you pay attention to the lessons and respect the principles, so they work for you rather than against you. Turns out we have the power to thrive too, as well as the power to destroy to destroy ourselves. It is after all- up to us. We do have the power, even those who have no idea that it exists have the power.

The sad part is that you can't fix anyone else's life with this knowledge, just your own. I've tried- worked at teaching it for a few years. The real issue of learning goes back to the proverb above. Until you can throw out the trash or at least see through it, you can't see the answers, even when they are black and white right in front of you. They contradict things we have believed all our lives, and we want the answers we seek to fit neatly into what we already think we know- the trash pile. Even a person told exactly what they are can't understand how they can work and rejects them, with an occasional rare exception; usually someone whose life has been shattered so hard they are rebuilding everything.
If I could accomplish one more significant thing in life, it would be finding a way to give others the ability to use this.

 

Its not backwards. You are saying the same thing.
In a godless universe, everything (morality, purpose, etc) is a human construct. Man is no more significant than a sponge or amoeba.

I Repeat:

In a logical exercise, you assume either premise, then arrive at the conclusion. Morality can ONLY exist in a God made universe, IF you assume He imbedded these moral codes in His Creation. In a godless universe, there is no Embedder, and any 'morality' are just human constructs.. platitudes to manipulate and control.

 

History and scienceare the places to look for truth. Art, religion and philosophy are the places to look for ideas.

 

So your point is we can look at man's behavior as the indicator of god's morality? Why do we need god then. Lets just take man as the creator of his own moralities.

Let me suggest that in general,on what Christians claim is moral behavior, that other animals are a much better exemplar than man.

 

Some of these gods are good, some are pure evil.

The way the Gods are invented, is what points the morality of the people.

 

People can look wherever they want.. or not. People can believe whatever they want. Their beliefs carry logical conclusions, and perhaps consequences. Lies abound, so be careful!

..not sure how you got that from my post, but if it pleases you, go for it! Since there is no morality or absolutes in a godless universe, following reason is equally absurd!

 

Morality is the reflection on how the mind works. Your mind will tell you what it feels comfortable doing if you listen to it. If it doesn't you're a sociopath.

 

Well, if God embedded a moral code in his creation then it wouldn't matter what kind of a universe you believed in the code would still be there and working. If you build a boat and try to use it as a car it won't work. If you have an embedded code and operate contrary to that code your mind won't function as it should. It's pretty easy to tell if your mind is functioning as it should. If it isn't you wind up living a disruptive life, like Trump for example, and society pays for the disruptions.

I believe the brain is coded, but it wasn't a god that coded it, it was evolution.

 

Same way he got the jews? Torture?

 

I never defined nor predicted.
Ghandi is not a deflection. It's a simple straight forward question. Was Ghandi a moral man? Yes or No.
Much of the world saw Ghandi as an exemplary moral man. Are you with much of the world or NOT?

 

..nevermind. you're just trying to seize a narrative, not follow the reasoning. Gandhi is irrelevant to the logic.

In a godless universe, Gandhi was no better or worse than Attila the hun, or a cabbage.

In a God made universe, he MIGHT be moral, if the morals he expressed were indeed from God.

 

Gotcha
Ghandi was evil or not good in your world. That would be NO to my question to you about Ghandi being good.

There is only the god made world that one has in their mind. And just about every human has a slightly different vision of some god. Even though the base is similar.

 

Of course there is. Most animals would be considered by a dispassionate observer to behave more morally ( by biblical standards) than most of humanity. And I doubt many are going to claim that animals have religious beliefs.

 

Wrong. Just assume that morality is doing what is best for the largest number of people. The morality from the Christian god was in favor of the British supressing the Indians.