The Canadian attitude toward attacks articulated

the Canucks should use this as an opportunity to institute some common sense security meaures.

the (*)(*)(*)(*)ing Skytrain in Vancouver operates on the honor system, for God's sakes!!!

 

oh look a non sequitar.

nothing surrealist about it at all.

Well I certainly agree harper is no Pearson.

Why do you insist on not recognizing that it isn't Canadian Peace Keepers who establish the ROE, its is the UN. And they FAILED miserably more often than not.
You'll find that the African Union peacekeepers currently deploy have not such asinine ROE restriction.

Laughing stock of the rest of the planet? Not prone to bullcrap or hyperbole I see.

Really? miserably co-ordinated and equipped barbarians with 6 billion in cash, and 20 million a day in oil revenue, not to mention the tons of arms captured from both the Syrian and Iraqi military? last estimates of their strength were approaching 40,000.

Nuisance? Like the hutu were nuisances?

Oh Look yet another non sequitar.

We have NEVER been pacifist and if anyone has got that impression they are ignorant of our military history. We are more or less rational and MOST DEFINITELY and independent nation.

Considering we refused to participate in Iraq 2, I'd say we have demonstrated we are rational and independent and don't go to war for the heck of it.

Facts do seem to elusive for you.

No question that the French were in Canada first. OTOH, considering the French were defeated in 1759, LONG BEFORE CANADA WAS A SOVEREIGN NATION, perhaps you can explain how you think Quebec built "my country"?

You certainly did build your country with the help of the rest of Canada, not to mention our colonial occupiers.

Not much of a history student either it seems.

that wasn't an opinion, that was a fact.
Or are you suggesting that Duplessis and the Catholic Church did not conspire to keep les quebecois second class citizens within Canada?

Now you change the subject. Decentralization has been and I suspect will be a topic of political discussion for decades to come. Decentralization would actually help Ontario rather more than any other province, but why bother with facts.

As to your strawman that I hate Quebec, nothing could be further from the truth, but I grant it might be hard for a separatist to discern the difference between intense dislike of the notion of separatism (rooted in fervent patriotism) and stolid opposition to their daydreams, with hating the quebecois.

See I happen to live in your country, just like you live in mine. I am Canadian, tu est Canadien. and that's a fact, jack.

 

We already do have common sense security measures. Not to say they can't always be improved subject to changing conditions.

What we don't have is draconian security measures as instituted in some other nations that do not take into account the size or scope of risk, just that a particular risk exists.

 

I don't think he was a jihadi. I think he was mentally ill.

 

no, you don't

 

Strong argumentation. So that's your easy cop out when things go awry, huh?

I don't care about the UN; Once, Canada was regarded as an honest broker, and yeah I think you have to be pretty proud of that.

We got booted off the UNSC because we became a mouthpiece for the US in 2010.

Oh, they have cash aplenty for sure, but when all is to be said and done, they will reveal being no more of a "world-ending treath" than Al-Qeada ever was. It's the rage.

Yeah, but those days are gone. Harper himself admitted he would have dived into Iraq if he was PM at that time.

"Canada" existed way before it was a sovereign nation. It became a sovereign nation in 1982. And it's not because the French was defeated that they were necessarly wrong. You can't claim to "own" a people because you beat them hundreds of years ago.

Ha - I am historian enough to roll you in farina should this OT topic go on. Let's just say that we build Canada in spite of you, fighting you every inch of the progressive road. We are the ones who explored it, who made friendly contacts with the natives (that you stabbed in the back, too), we give this country its greatest politicians and about every little social revolutions that has taken place ever since. What is Canada without Quebec, even today? North Minnesota ad mare usque ad marem. There is nothing that differentiate you from a particularly boring form of Yank, even today, but us.

You have no idea what you are talking about. For you, everything that was done by nationalists was at its base, bad, while you anglos and federalists were angelic and progressive. You'd even go linking pre-Quiet revolution nationalism with post-Quiet revolution one, thinking it's the same thing. Anyway, in any case it wouldn't hurt you (especially if you intend to discuss it with me) to learn about the subject, especially the Quiet Revolution. The Quebecois now are maybe the most atheistic people in North America.

Pf! Ontario makes quite a fat, easy buck with the federal machine. If centralisation comes they're the ones who will lose most.

Yeah. Sure.

Sounds nice, but as of now, I'm the one sticking with Canadian values - you are not.

 

by your failed logic, Britian, USA, Canada, Australia, are all the same country cause they all speak English.

does that also make you part of French Switzerland?

 

It doesn't bother me that he got that close. Nothing should change because of this. He was quickly killed.
THe whole thing from shooting the soldier to his death llasted a minute and a half. You cannot do any better than that.

 

you're not bothered that a terrorist-sympathizer with a double-barrel shotgun got inside your parliament building???????????????????/

lolol!!!!!

 

I don't know what's so ridiculous: They're all WASP nations and as such share a lot of characteristics. In fact, until relatively recently they were all indeed the same country, more or less. You can add Scotland, Eyre and South Africa to the group.

Likewise, we French-Canadians still have much in common with Normandy french people, althought a couple centuries and a large pool of native genes separates us.

But even among the anglosphere, Canadians are renowned as featureless and boring. Don't forget that these guys flee the birthing United States because they were either too obedient or too frightened by the Crown. They were quite glad to be colons.

 

While I appreciate the openness of our political elite, I don't think it's unreasonable to have an armed guard at the door.

 

No only when somebody attempt to introduce a point wholly irrelevant to the one under discussion.

It is most definitely not a form of "strong argumentation". Look up the various logical fallacies since you seem unaware of them.

Then you can't really care about pearson's legacy being dumped in the trash by them.

When have we ever been a dishonest broker? Well there was that time in Tehran.

Great mischaracterization of international diplomacy. And we didn't get booted off. We weren't elected. A rather HUGE distinction.

I never even remotely hinted that they were a world ending threat.

No those days are not gone. Harper wasn't the PM at the time or anything remotely close so his "hindsight" is irrelevant.

We were always sovereign in the sense that we as Canadians have been making our own determinations since 1867.
Who said anything about the French being wrong. I said you were wrong.

And who claimed to own a people? In fact, if it wasn't for the decision to allow the French in Canada to retain both their language and legal code, perhaps there wouldn't be any separatist movement today. Of course there probably would have been at least one big ass civil war.

Isn't it a fortunate accident of history that many of the first explorers and economic exploiters of Canadian territory were French? From Champlain to "radishes and gooseberries" they sure did leave their mark on our history. But then so did Mackenzie, Hudson, Thompson, Franklin, Gilbert, Frobisher, Cook, Vancouver.

I certainly can't argue that Quebec has provide the nation with some of its greatest political leaders. Which, is an indication of ROC's acceptance of Quebec and the quebecois as CANADIAN.

there are plenty of things to differentiate Canadians from Americans without un petite morceau de saveur francaise.

Can't say I am impressed with your knowledge of our history and since I prefer oatmeal, I'll let you roll around in farina by yourself. anytime you want to debate Canadian history, I am more than up for fun.



And its not like those early French people didn't infect the native population with all manner of euro-diseases, killing tens if not hundreds of thousands. And of course the French didn't mercilessly use the natives as "allies" in their continuing wars with the british.


I agree that Canada without irreparably diminished without Quebec, economically and culturally.

Of course I have an idea of what I am talking about. OTOH, I do not presume to be the expert that you are in your own political movement.

I don't know about atheist, but certainly the most irreligious polity only trailing the Yukon.

Tell me, when you refer to Quebecois are referring to Anglophones and first nations as well as francophones?

My my. Something about glass houses and stones.

As of now? have you had some epiphany and have adopted Canadian values, or are they more or less the same as quebecois values?

 

brilliant riposte.

would any security measure short of the wholesale suspension of civil rights have prevented somebody from slipping surveillance, wait in a car for two hours for some uniforms to come into sight and then running them down?

would any security measure short of draconian measures to limit access to parliament hill and the Cenotaph have prevented that ******** from perpetrating his crimes?

Yes, common sense measures like having armed guards outside parliament building entrances, and actually loading the honour guards' guns.

 

Simple solution. Armed honour guards at the cenotaph and at all entrances to parliament. Likewise all high profile symbolic public locations.

 

I'm fairly sure the Canadian air force does not care if an Islamist in Iraq/Syria at war with Canada was unarmed and whatnot.

 

Welcom to the wonderfull world of islam.
where every man is a target and woman are but property.

 

We've been OT for a while now, and I wasn't the one to steer the discussion out of the way. One thing I do, though, is answering these points, OT or not. That's what you call a discussion. I do not chose to ignore them if the going gets tough.

Don't blame on the UN the fact that Canada is today a hawkish country. It makes no sense.

The recent Israel/Palestine conflict comes to mind.

Well, we weren't elected in a position we traditionally held for decades because the rest of the world tought we weren't fit to hold it anymore.

Alright. So you'll agree with me that now isn't the time to go hysteric, right?

Still it shows the little judment possessed by the guy, and his ridiculous hawkish ideals.

Ha ha. You brought that bit about the French being beaten as an argument as to why Quebec should stay in Canada. I remembered you that it was a fallacious argumentation.

Oh thank you - thank you so much for not having us deported like you did the Acadians or killed like you did the Metis. B'wana is kind and gentle. We love B'wana. Did you read the Dunham report? If it wasn't for the Catholic church, we would have been totally rendered irrelevant today. You anglos can certainly not be blamed for lack of trying.

If that was so, we would enjoy the Meech Lake accord as we speak. That's the problem with you anglos: You can organize a big Love-In like at the eve of the second referendum, than totally turn heels and be back at business as usual like if nothing happened. Do you remember Trudeau, on the eve of the first referendum, promising that he would be putting his neck on the line to change things if Quebec opted to stay in Canada? What happened after was the Night of the Long Knives, which even Quebec's Liberal ("federalistic to the point of hysteria") party denounced at the Assemblée Nationale.

Like what, Tim Horton? Rush? Gordon Lightfoot? You guys listen to the same programs, the same songs, you dress much alike, think alike ect. Ontario is the Canadian foyer of ultra-canadian nationalism precisely because they don't feel confident that they are different from the Yanks.

I stick by my case; If you think that today's Quebec is the same as Duplessis', all you know about Quebec is the propaganda that you learned in your biaised circles.

Well, at least we infected them because we mingled with them. It's not like we've given them blankets infected with smallpox like Amherst did, as a payment for helping defeating us.

There it is, the Love-in.

Quebec's population is much more mixed than in the RoC. At its base, the average Quebecois is a metis that encourages a homogenous society. Everyone who embraces our more socialist society and doesn't consider themselves above it are indeed Quebecois, not only by virtue of geography but at heart. That of course exclude about all of the West Island, this vile Canadian Trojan Horse that never did accepted the Quiet Revolution.

Most natives in Quebec are french-speaking. It's just that the Anglo ones makes much more noise.

Ha ha ha. Yeah, why debate since all the complex picture is represented on this one-dimensional graph? I wonder if anti-quebec financing done in Quebec, like the Sponsorship Scandal, are expressed on this graph.

Remember the times when that maple leaf on your backpack insured you instant sympathy and security anywhere in the world you travelled? The Canadian values (or temperence, peace-seeking and international help) comes from Quebec. Logical, since Quebec is the original Canada. You guys just followed along until now. No, you lead and the result is less than stellar on the international scene.

Just admit than when Quebec will be an independant nation, we will "hinder" you no more.

 

Okay, Jonsa: That last post makes it sound as if I hated the Anglo, but it's not the case: I may have a few historical beefs, but mainly I simply believe we are two different cultures, or "solitudes", that would be better off separate, or at least united only in the loosest form of Confederation, à la EU - that is; the central government controls borders, the army, inter-provincial tribunals, and not much else. Let us respect our difference.

The OP only brings this dichotomy into view. I regret that we are no longer the world's boy-scout.

 

Considering your response had NOTHING to do with my comment, I don't call that discussion, I call that a red herring.
But given this response, it sure does look like you ignore comments when the "going gets tough".

I didn't. this is called a strawman.

I blamed the UN for dumping Pearson's concept of peacekeeping in the trash.

CANADA HAS ALWAYS BEEN A "HAWKISH" COUNTRY. Might want to read a history book or two.

I don't recall any dishonesty. Perhaps you can actually explain this comment or provide a link.

Canada has by tradition one every decade for a two year term, held a seat on the security council. However, in 2010 we lost the election. But you completely and utterly mischaracterize why and how that happened.

Yes I totally agree, as does the Canadian government, hence our measured response in contributing to the effort to combat ISIS.

I don't like Harper so I won't defend him.

Who the hell made that idiotic argument? NOBODY thinks events from 230+ years ago can provide any kind of contemporary argument for confederation.

I find your choice of pronouns rather telling.

Nobody that I know disputes the fact that British colonialism was fraught with idiocy, bigotry, self righteousness and a false belief in divine right.

Of course I have read the Durham Report and Papineau's famous response. And most definitely the catholic church played a role in Quebec, mostly to its detriment. OTOH, it didn't play nearly as important an role as the Civil Code of lower Canada and its successor the Civil code of Quebec (in 1867). A civil code that while revised and updated REMAINS IN PLACE TODAY.

Meech was killed in the end because it was "11 guys in suits" attempting to unilaterally change the constitution of the nation WITHOUT either consultation of existing minorities and stakeholders and without a national referendum. Elijah Harper was as indignant as the majority of Canadians over that lack of consultation.

I admit Trudeau's "renewed federalism" pledge was vague. However, he was crystal clear that the repatriation of the constitution and the enactment of Canada's charter of rights and freedoms WAS ONLY THE FIRST STEP in a constitutional reform process that would include institutional reform (e.g. senate) and redefinition of federal/provincial powers.
Unfortunately for Quebec, Levesque knew exactly what would happen when he threatened the Trudeau with his "gimme it all now or I ain't signing" display of arrogant impatience. It was a smart move on his part considering the boost it gave the separatist movement.

As for the supposed "night of the long knives" stabbing Quebec in the back, nothing like a little dramatic misrepresentation of actual events. No constitution can have an "opt out" clause. Its bad enough there is a "notwithstanding" clause in it now.


Like what, Tim Horton? Rush? Gordon Lightfoot? You guys listen to the same programs, the same songs, you dress much alike, think alike ect. Ontario is the Canadian foyer of ultra-canadian nationalism precisely because they don't feel confident that they are different from the Yanks.

What a superficial, cynical and frankly bigoted perspective of your fellow Canadians.

you are either ridiculously out of touch of the culture scene in Quebec, or you are lamely trying to bait.

Quebec City, April 10, 2014 -
From July 3 to 13: Billy Joel, Lady Gaga, The Killers, Bryan Adams, Snoop Dogg, Journey, Steve Miller Band, Soundgarden, Queens of the Stone Age, Louis-Jean Cormier, Local Natives, Three Days Grace, Daniel Lanois, Cypress Hill, Paul Daraîche, Grand Corps Malade, Gogol Bordello, Émilie Simon, Tiken Jah Fakoly, St-Vincent, John Mayall, Father John Misty and many more! The 47th Festival d’été de Québec stays true to tradition by offering once again a top quality, well balanced and diversified program.

Might want to check out the top ten movies in Quebec last week.

Are those levi's you are wearing?

The rich and diverse francophone entertainment industry in Quebec is a marvelous thing for all Canadians. Are you forgetting that outside of Quebec there are also francophones most noteably in Ontario and New Brunswick.

.Canadians and Americans do not "think alike". We share many values, but have many differing ones as well. And Quebecois share Canadian values with rest of Canada.

I stick by my case; If you think that today's Quebec is the same as Duplessis', all you know about Quebec is the propaganda that you learned in your biaised circles.

And in the 21st Century, the Quebecois are perfectly happy to ignore the will of the first nations and the rights granted to them, or did the fact that they overwhelmingly voted to stay in Canada should the referendums outcome be positive for separation.

Love in? Hardly, just a statement of fact.

Not a student of Canadian demographics I see.
As to your comment on the West Island, it demonstrates your own bigotry.
OF COURSE the English elite who held a disproportionate % of the economic power of the province as well political power were far more supportive of the existing status quo. But, they did bow to the inevitable. When Levesque and the Pequistes introduced Bill101, those that did not agree with the direction being taken, left.

Of course you mean first nations. And as for most being French speaking, it appears even their language did not stop them from emphatically rejecting the notion of an independent Quebec.

A complex picture? What complex picture. Its pretty damn straightforward - Quebec has received FAR MORE in federal tax monies than they have contributed.

As for your pathetic attempt to cast aspersions on this inarguable fact, yes the sponsorship "scandal" was misuse of federal funds.
You might recall that this little bit of corruption occurred in Quebec proper. But if you really want to get into the topic of political corruption, Quebec has a long history of such corruption. so I don't think its a good idea to "throw stones'

And in most of the world, the maple leaf still commands respect and amity.

Temperance is not a Canadian value, and even if it was Quebec's alcohol consumption is above the Canadian average. I myself have some experience in hoist a few "cinquante" with my quebecois friends.

Where you get the ridiculous parochial idea that "peace seeking" and "international help" are values that originated in Quebec is a mystery. Want to back up those assertions with some facts or are you just spouting "feel good separatist propaganda"?

Nothing like trying to conflate 300 year old history with contemporary Canada. But then again, I understand the necessity of such a flimsy foundation for separatism today?

Actually, in the very unlikely event of Quebec becoming an independent nation, you will be way more of a hindrance to the rest of Canada. The Canadian dollar will be devalued, Canadian credit rating will be downgraded, we'll be bickering about quebec's share of the national debt AND the price of Federal assets in Quebec, passports, armed forces, border/immigration controls, trade treaty participation, defence treaty participation, etc, etc, etc.

Perhaps the emotional motivations driving separatists preclude them from being practical wrt to the giant economic and political clustermuck it would create for all Canadians including themselves.

To me the separatist fervour is reminiscent of a spoiled child who demands without regard for consequence.

 

I appreciate your clarification.

As you no doubt have figured out I completely disagree with your perspective. I believe that a United Canada empowers our people to create the best that Canada can be.

And that empowerment can drive our continuing to work on the "renewed federalism" that Trudeau espoused. Institutional reform and rationalization of power sharing between the feds and the provinces are positive things that ALL Canadians should support.

We were never the world's boy scouts. I for one, do not regret the fact that Canada has never had a problem in standing up and defending its values against all enemies.

 

Your Canada - not mine. If it was about Quebec, we wouldn't even have fought in WWII. Quebec is a peaceful nation, with no conquest background. Pearson aligned himself on this to make the whole of Canada a respected nation, maybe at some point the most respected nation of the world in that aspect. Those days are gone, my friend. It's going to take decades to have that status back.

Ah come on. Canada condoned everything Israel did, as if we were an even more hysteric version of the US. There was no one in the Parliement to denounce this. Wow.

I don't. We got booted of this office out because we became an imperialistic mouthpiece.

As bigoted as it as, the Catholic Church, with its xenophobism, allowed the French-Canadian culture to survive, by acting a bit like orthodox Jews. Of course it had its bad sides, including alienation, but then here we are. In the face of such cultural solidarity (and native support) from such a high part of the population, London didn't apply the methods it has used in Acadia or on the metis.

Meech was the proof Canada just can't accomodate its founding nation. If all of Canada was french, but for a province that would be an english foyer, do you really think it would stay a province for long? Ha!

That's codswallop - Even the ultra-federalistic Liberal party of Quebec denounced Ottawa in there. All of the other Premiers and the PM in a room, at night, adopting a plan against Quebec is no treason? Get out of here.

Of course, having our own, specific culture doesn't prvent us from being open on the world. But when you hear a Quebecois song, you know it. It's visibly or audibly different, and we like it to the point where e can make these artists rich and well-known even with our relatively low population. Same thing can be said about our movies, or social programs that really reflect our different culture. The Quebecois culture isn't just a synthetic wall we try to build to make ourselves different from the Yanks - It is natural, obvious, living and vibrant.

There is no difference between RoCanadian and American cultures, or if there is, it's about the same as the cultural difference between poeple living in Indiana and those from Wyoming.

Made in China, or from some third-world country where labour is cheap, like yours. Capitalism has nothing to do with national identity. I also eat bacon and eggs at breakfast, not hot chocolate and croissants. We are north-Americans stiil.

Once Quebec is out, Canada will have no more "Canadian values", apart for a society ideal made out of heterogenous ghettoes whereas the US' and Quebec's aims at a more homogenous people, united by common national ideals.

By "ignoring them", you mean we don't fill our prisons with them like you guys do in the west? We "ignore them" because Indian affairs is a federal jurisdiction. It was René Levesque who granted them the power to police themselves. And the natives will vote "no" to everything and anything that changes status quo and their welfare status or the priviledges they have over a regular Canadian citizen. Most of them prefer to live as Sacred Cows for the wrongs you guys did on them in the past than being a full progressive citizen. If Quebec ever get independant and they don't want to be part of us, part of a society that wants them back as active citizens, you can keep your native "souvenirs".

Nah - they threaten to leave, but most of them stayed in their manicured enclaves on the hill. You should read horrors like "The Gazette" formerly a bilingual paper) and "The Suburban" to see where they are driving at. Most of these people are quite conscious and proud to be colonists in Quebec, Trojan Horses of the good old ways. When I lived in Ottawa, I was surprised to see that the Anglos there were not as "bunker" as those in the West Island.

You see that's the problem; Ottawa's right of spending has been so far counter-productive to Quebec, who wants to make things our own ways. And yes, it is a complex question, for which simplistic graphs like that are largely ignored by specialists.

And as for Quebec's corruption, surely you have noticed, like me, that they are all from the federalist side of things. Quebecois federalists like Trudeau or Chretien are well-liked in the west and quick on backstabbing their own. It seems there's no way to keep Quebec in the country without dirty tricks and corruption. Well, at least, we begun to clean that out, so like everything else I expect the RoC to do the same 5-10 years later, althought don't expect much out of it since the Liberals are back in the seat.

It's on its last miles. Like the Americans and Brits who travel on foot, soon you guys will have to replace it with a fleur de lys to re-gain the same respect you used to have.

Well, I tought history would be enough to prove that. Ever heard about our stance on going in WWII and the conscription it produced? Never was Quebec an antagonistic nation. It may even have costs us our independance.

Do you have any idea of the sheer nimbers of new nations since the end of WWII? Why would Quebec and Canada be incapable of becoming separate nations but others can?

A child? We are more akin to being the country's wife rather than its children. We represent from 20 to 25% of Canada' population, but when we sit at a federal table we're drowned 1 among 12. Why the foch does PEI have as much federal power as we do? Quebec isn't just an Canadian ethnic group like you guys tend to see: We are Canada's founding nation.

And if we get independant, we'll still be a lot more "Canadianer" than you. Heck, we should even take back the name.

 

well, France is known for not fighting very hard or with great courage.

 

I hope that was sarcasm...

 

Jews, too, were quite sheepish and cattle-like, in the same era.

What, you don't like it when it's right back at you?

 

unlike France, the Jews didn't have their own military.