The Free markets simply CANNOT manage affordable healthcare.

Let's stop the nonsense, there is no way that the 'free markets' can provide affordable healthcare. How does the free market work? When a corporation is given freedom to maximize profits, it's a simple equation - maximize revenue, minimize expense. This very basic principle gives companies incentive to discontinue unprofitable business, it's this simple. If a car manufacturer is producing a car that is too costly and can't sell for a high enough price to make a profit, it stops it's production.

Now on to healthcare. Why would any insurance company provide healthcare to the sick unless they charge them very high premiums? The free markets will set this price extremely high relative to insurance for healthy people. Not to mention the premiums need to cover doctor's bloated salaries, insurance company enormous profits and executive pay. There is simply NO WAY that the free markets can provide affordable healthcare to all citizens. It's really not even debatable and the solution is very simple - pay for the sick via taxes that EVERYONE pays. How this is implemented, is another story but there is no solution to this unless everyone (healthy and sick) contributes and these taxes provide the subsidies necessary to pay for the unprofitable care of the sick.

The free market debate is not even a debate.

 

Simplistic nonsense bordering on extreme economic ignorance. We haven't had a true free market in medicine in about seventy years. It is interesting to note that so-called boutique clinics are popping up everywhere. The charge about 1/3 to 1/2 what the same services would cost at government controlled hospitals. The difference you pay cash on the barrel head or via credit card. Many have also incorporated plans where by you can pay so much a month and go in and get what ever service you require whenever you need it at even more reduced rates. They manage this because they don't have to jump through all the hoops the government and various insurance companies require them to jump through to get reimbursed. That alone saves then a tremendous amount of money.

 

This healthcare debate is dead, and CA killed it.

If you don't know why you can't have your universal healthcare, ask moonbeam and he'll explain that it would simply cost too much.

period

 

Wrong.

All you are stating is that if left to their own devices, health insurance companies would not cover pre-existing conditions. And if they were operating as an insurance company, they would be perfectly justified in refusing to cover a pre-existing condition. You get insurance to protect against a future event, you are insuring your financial health against a future expense. You can't get life insurance after you are dead, or car insurance after you wreck your car.

Your problem is that you view health insurance not as insurance but as a health care provider. They are not a provider, they are a middle man. The real problem is the cost of health care, not the availability or cost of health insurance.

 

Maybe people don't want health insurance. Maybe they want health care providers.

 

We need to negotiate drug prices.

 

So do these boutiques handle dialysis? Transplants? Critical care?

No?

Then your point is?

 

REALLY? OH MAN TELL ME MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

which 'boutique' clinics are you referring to? So if i have a disease that will cost them 500k dollars over many years, they will offer me a nice, cheap way of affording it? How do they make money? how do the doctors get paid? which insurance company will pay for the 500k without charging me a premium of 20k a month? TELL ME MORE!!!!! I WANT TO KNOW MORE!!! PLEASE!

and btw, the argument that healthcare is expensive because the government is involved is a non-starter because healthcare is MUCH cheaper in Countries where insurance or/and healthcare are nationalized. All those administrative hoops you mention? they are much less costly in these countries than in USA, how come? If what you say is true, healthcare in these Countries would be MUCH more expensive than in the USA. The evidence suggest MORE GOVERNMENT, LESS COSYLY, not the other way around.

BUT TELL ME MORE ABOUT THESE MIRACALE BOUTIQUE CLINICS!!!

 

oh pls..

why does car insurance go up when someone gets into an accident?

you think insurance companies are in it to take care of people and take losses if they need to, because they are compassionate? They are in the business of making money! so they will set premiums to cover the sick and these premiums cannot be cheap unless they receive a subsidy. This is no different than a car manufacturer charging 50k (the healthy) for a base car but 100k (the sick) for a luxury car, the difference is that people don't really need a luxury car but the sick do need care. If what you claim is true why does a car manufacturer charge more for a car that costs them more? based on what you say, they could charge the same price irrespective of cost, you guys keep sticking your foot down your throats with these arguments.

The biggest mistake people make is treating insurance for the sick as some 'luxury' item that only the people with money need or want.

 

I keep bringing something up, which is that socialized medicine seems to work here for us Canadians. And I get no responses from the nay-sayers. I am not saying just because it works here for us it must necessarily work in the States too. I am saying that perhaps Americans can study what has worked for us so far and the reasons behind it. Maybe pick up the parts that they like and try to duplicate them. It just might work for them too.

 

You probably get no response from the nay-sayers because we don't want socialized medicine. For those that do, you can ask them why they haven't tried mirroring your system at a municipal or state wide basis.

Hell, you guys voted for Trudeau and we voted for Trump. That should tell you all you need to know that we are separated by more than a border.

 

Why not?

Also, I can't stand Trudeau. I didn't vote for him either.

 

Because we're not socialists. We're free market capitalists, and socialized medicine is going in the wrong direction.

 

But a lot of Americans are languishing because they can't get the health care that they need. I think ending suffering should trump political ideology.

 

People are free to make different choices in life. Some goof off in school and don't study. Some prefer to pursue a career in the busking industry, some buy porsches instead of investing their money, and some go to university to study ethnic basket weaving, and graduate top of their class with 200k in student debt.

If anybody wants my advice, I've never been shy about telling people what I think might be a good direction to take in life. So... you make your choices and live with the results.

 

What choice?

 

But you are making the assumption that people get sick due to the poor choices that they make. This is not always the case. Illnesses can strike anyone at any time.

 

That's just funny as hell. you either do not know what socialism is or you do not understand federal and state policies. Hell the post office is socialist so take your complaint to that great American Marxist Ben Franklin

 

Of course it's not always the case, but it's enough of the time that I've got no problem with people who genuinely need help getting it. There are several ways people do that, either from family helping out or by charity.

Again, you're really barking up the wrong tree here. You should stop asking naysayers like myself why we don't want to mirror Canada's healthcare legislation and ask those who actually say they want it why they haven't done it where they live.

When your question goes completely unanswered, which I assume it will, well... maybe they don't want it either.

 

I find it astonishing that partisanship even enters into this argument.

Healthcare is not subject to the bargaining forces of the free market. . . . It may be likened to extortion, where outrageous demands are arbitrarily made that the victim meets in order to avoid unacceptable consequences.

It is a need, not a luxury, and should not be subject to the out-of-control exploitation that runs rampant in our current system.

 

So why haven't your city or state adopted socialized medicine? You probably can't blame me for that, but you can blame your neighbors and mayor and governor.

 

Do you see what I'm talking about, Wan? You asked a perfectly legitimate question, but the very people who say they want something along the lines of Canada's socialized medicine won't explain why they haven't done it.

If they're waiting for me and Trump, they've got an awfully long wait ahead of them. All those people suffering? Nope, they're just gonna wait until they can get everybody on board, and to hell with all those people they claim are needlessly suffering.

For some bizarre reason, they have to wait for me to get on board with this idea, instead of taking their great idea which everybody claims will actually save money, and would leave me paying ridiculous prices for healthcare while they are just dropping a few bucks into the medical tip box.

And if you're really wondering why they are being silent, the reason is because they really need me to pay their medical bills. Without me, their "Have Belch pay for my stuff!" idea doesn't get off the ground.

That's why they are silent.

 

The COUNTRY will adopt it, sooner or later, when it has no other choice.

 

See, you're just gonna wait until you can dip into that good ol' fiat currency and print your way out of the hospital.

until you can do that, you're going to let all of those people everybody says is suffering die needlessly.

That's on you, dude. All those people who just can't pay their medical bills because you're just going to wait with your great idea until you can get absolutely everybody you possibly can to get on board.

You'll let them die needless deaths and suffer horribly because they can't pay those ridiculous healthcare bills all because you want people like me who say "thanks, but no thanks" to get on board with your wonderful idea.

Thank you so very much for proving my point. You don't care about anybody but yourself.

 

You certainly match Trump's ego (along with many other of his endearing qualities).