The independence of Cataluña from Spain: What do you think about?

I dont know how is treated this actual topic in your countries, the elections in Cataluña will start tomorrow, today is the reflexion day(the political candidates can`t do political acts to not contaminate what the people could decide), and the polls are thrown approximately that a little more of the half of the population support remain in Spain, and the rest are supposed to support the independence(I said, supposed, because not all the voters for a party which claims for the independence are supporting that option), the actual president of this region of Spain, says that he will declare an unilateral independence from the state with a majority of deputies, NOT for the majority of votes, (his political party, Junts per el Sí, would obtained about 44% of the total votes), with the opposition of economical experts, who are set against it, bargain for a disaster in the case the independence was declared, all of this, after years and years of brainwashing, banning the spanish almost totally in that region, manipulating the kids in the schools, telling them a fake history of the region, in the text books, the culprit of all bad which occurs to cataluña is Spain, letting that, in the future, the men who are kids now, tend to blame Spain for all their problems, they remind me to North Korea and his regime of total manipulation, what do you think folks?

 

Spa in is using Catalina as its own private ATM to prop up the rest of the (bankrupt) country. The preposterous claim that the Catalans have no independent national history ignores the fact that 1/2 of Spain is Aragon (the Catalan nation that supposedly never existed). All the economic arguments assume Catalina wouldn't rejoin the EU.

If I was Catalan, is say (*)(*)(*)(*) Spain.

 

Homage to Catalonia!



I'm all for independentisme català as it is a separate nation/culture which speaks its own language ~ Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim.

Catalonians should speak their own language first and then have Castellano (which is called Español in the USA) as a second language. Their wealth should be kept within their borders and not sent over to Madrid where the elitist Bourbon king enriches himself and sends off the money to Swiss bank accounts. As you well known Catalonians fought against fascist dictator and Hitler's lackey Franco ~ therefore, they should oppose his appointed lap dog Juan Carlos and his family. To me, if I were a Catalonian I would view any further support for those foreign dictators as treason.








"Visca el Barça i Visca Catalunya"

 

Hahaha I'd know catalonian brainwashed independence supporters was so active on the internet, but not until this point hahaha, the kingdom of cataluña never existed, was inside the kingdom of aragon, I am not friend of the spanish monarchy , but the post above complain about borbones because they have their money outside the country or something similar???? You know perfectly the political party actually in government is corrupted until its root, I am not saying the borbones dont but they are the same (*)(*)(*)(*), and indeed of supporting podemos candidate who are searching the political regeneration focusing in the real problems of the real people and dont pay attention of this diverting maneuvre called " independence"

 

A lot of words an nothing said. Are you trolling our are you just a not so clever unionist? I can't tell, the internet is filled with both. I find it interesting to note that articulate unionists are quite rare online.

 

When people have their culture outlawed as happened in Catalonia under Franco, naturally they will want freedom. You cannot force loyalty at the point of a gun, impose a language on a people which is not their own, deny the expression of people and their heritage, and then expect them to want to stay under your power. As long as people are free to be themselves and feel valued and equal, they will not care where the center of government is. Franco pretended that there was only one identity in Spain. He was wrong. The damage is done. When people in Castile y La Mancha say of the Catalans that "they remind me to North Korea and his regime of total manipulation", then it is time to declare independence.

 

hahaha, the word "unionist" is pathetic, you try to compare this political conflict into a war with that vocabulary, pretending be the new north ireland or so,hahaha , the most funny thing, is what artur mas declared; that the whole world is paying attention to cataluña, while the rest of the world have real problems and dont have time to waste in your invented war against spain

 

War? Do you want a war? You're the only fool making out a referendum to be a war.

I'm going with not so bright unionist.

 

wow, you are such well informed right?(sarcasme) franco ruled spain 40 years ago,in the region of cataluña noone have problems to speak in the language they want, it is just the opposite, people who have been in trouble for speak in spanish, people who had been beaten up for the same, for example, if you have a business, and the exterior name of it its only written in spanish , you will have a ticket for not label it also in catalan,the local dialect, I remind you that spanish, of course, is the official language in all the country, and no one must be punished for write or talk with it , they demand freedom but they punish and attack anyone who dont follow their instructions of "good catalanist"

 

seems that is you who want a war, using that vocabulary that dont match with the problem in cataluña

 

You want to keep Aragon in union with Spain. YOU'RE the only person associating a adjective with war. Obviously you have ethnic war on your mind to make such a ridiculous leap. With a mindset like that on the Castilian side, why WOULDN'T they want independence?

 

I'm totally in favor of it. The world needs a far more decentralized political order.

 

The historical aspects of the debate are largely irrelevant to the underlying truth that characterizes this and all other independence movements, i.e., independence is a natural right.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Regardless of the historical and political circumstances surrounding the independence movement, the people living in Catalonia have a natural right to independence that the Spanish central government and its supporters are morally obligated to recognize and respect.

If they do not recognize and respect their natural right to independence, then they have no basis on which to claim their own independence from any other country or government who would presume to rule over them.

In other words, if Spain and its people have a right to independence from France or England or the USA, then Catalonia and its people have a right to independence from Spain. This right must be applied equally or not at all.

 

hahaha, ethnic war???? In iberian peninsula there are no important ethnical differences, what are u talking about? you are assuming the same rol as victim as they do, they are spreading out their victimism rapidly LOL!!

yes??Oh! you say that representing your country??A huge country which rule the world actually right?? You really believe that a world formed by tiny countries will be better and well organized than another where all tend to an union ??? in your opinion, what would be the advantages living in the decentralized world you opine we need??

 

SPAIN is ALREADY an independent country, not neccesary get it from the countries you named, just the opposite, spain owned territories across all the USA, but thats not important now , I assume that as a USA citizen you only know where your country is placed, and, by a reason that I dont reach to understand, you think the independence option has the majority of votes, NO!!! according to all the polls, they reach 44% approximately of votes, what will we do with the rest of the people, who are against that political option?? throw them away towards the new frontier of the Catalan Empire??

 

I only presume to represent myself as an individual.

The USA could use some decentralization, too. In fact, the USA is in desperate need of it. A large amount of the problems in this country are a result of the over-centralization of power with Washington DC, which is corrupt beyond all measure, and totally detached from the people it presumes to govern.

I'm not opposed to unions that are organic and voluntary. If there are enough people who consent to a large union, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Well, the first advantage would be less civil strife, because the over-centralization of political power leads to tensions, disagreements, and resentment between opposing factions. This phenomena can be observed in countries like Ukraine, Iraq, and Syria, where the centralized orders are falling apart and the underlying fractures are manifesting themselves as violence and hatred.

The second advantage would be governments that are more representative of and more accountable to the people they presume to govern. This is a result of the scale and proximity of government. A large, distant power is far less likely to be representative of and accountable to the people than a smaller, more localized power is. That doesn't mean that smaller, more localized powers are immune to corruptions and abuses, but they are much less capable of projecting their power than a larger power would be.

There are other benefits, but those are the two main ones I see from a more decentralized political order.

 

I know Spain is an independent country. My point is that if the people of Spain have a right to independence, then so do the people of Catalonia. If the right is not applied equally to everyone, then it is no right at all.

And I would question why you think the people of Catalonia would require the permission of the very people they're trying to gain their independence from? It's not like the founding fathers in America asked the British people for permission to declare their own independence because independence is a natural right, meaning it is not something that is granted to you by political powers or opposing factions. It's something that you are endowed with by virtue of being born into this world as a free person.

 

Why are you bothering with this guy? He's obviously not going to change his mind nor is he going to offer an intellectually challenging debate.

 

thank for the answers, but you are talking about a decentralization, not about an independence of a part of a former state, actually, the region of spain are 17(Comunidades Autónomas) and all already with a huge decentralization from the central state, which only have the competencies of external protection(army) , prisons(except Cataluña , who own it), inmigration and some more I forget, but not much more, the main competencies are in hands of comunidades autonomas governments, creating a web of local councils, more and more small, and more and more deep, where is easy to fall in a corruption way of government,but not only in cataluña , unless in all the country, and also in yours, overall, i think that in a centralized country is easier to control the corruption among the politics.

 

I think that is you who are commiting a mistake, with that feel of superiority you exhale from your posts,thinking your opinion is not open to a discuss, you have a lot in common with independence supporters, you dont think so?

 

yeah, I could be agree with that, in the case, specifically in CATALUÑA case, that in that region, they have a TV channel totally at service of the local government, not respecting the laws of the Tribunal Superior of Spain,(which is the maximum authority) about give the lessons in cataluña schools in spanish, they didnt respect it, they are not fulfilling the laws they sweared when they came to the power!!!! for example, was a case that the parents of a child here, wanted their child to received his lessons in spanish, and inmediately all the mass media(including the tv channel I said before) was set against them, and later they backed down because that pression, this is inacceptable, they are not ruling for all the people who lives there, unless only for which they want!!

 

I'm in favor of self-governance. I think any group of people ought to be able to withdraw from their current polity and institute their own form of governance. I oppose the majority keeping the minority captive.

 

The Catalans, Bascos, Galicianos, and Andalucía have a right to self determination. Had the central government of Madrid been more open to respect the languages and traditions of different nationalities instead of pretending that Spain is a single homogeneous state, there would be no movements for independence now.

 

lol, dont offend, but you have no idea about spanish political situation, andalucia have no aspiration of independence, read more folk about what you want to discuss next time,ah, and explain to me why the madrid government dont respect the different feelings and traditions owned by the rest of regions

 

so, according to you, what a minority wants, the rest must obey, what do you think the minority size must be to rule over the rest?1%?30%? 40%?