The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. True or false?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greatest I am, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I am standing on a rung on Jacob's ladder. Which rung, I don't know but do know that I have begun climbing it and moved up at least one rung.

    You, to me, are as I described myself. Which rung do you see y9ourself on?

    My family size matters not.

    Regards
    DL
     
  2. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think anyone can. When in it, you are not forming memories. You can only try to describe it without having anything to actually pull from memory. Of course people still try to do it, but it's faking it. IMO But being in that state, brings order to the mind once you start interacting with the world again. And its essence is never lost. It somehow affects the everyday mind. The one where the ego must arise in order to function. At least this is my own experience. If I think about it.

    If a silent mind is forming memories, it is hardly in a silent state.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  3. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I have experienced a silent mind many times. It has been described as "the thunder of silence". It is a deadness. Only then can a person actually realize that even when we sit quietly and by sheer will power stop the mind from thinking thoughts, there remains an underlying "racket" of churning that remains. Otherwise it is never noticed or discovered. And now after experiencing that repeatedly as I did, I can sit and get quiet and notice that turmoil going on but can't actually fully experience it.

    There are other aspects of it. For example, the experience is one of discovering that "I am unconditional love". The true meaning of "unconditional" becomes clear but explanations of it to others usually ends in their rejection and cynical belittlement of it. That love is experienced not as coming to Me, but as emanating, flowing FROM Me to anyone and anything that comes within range. The peace is total, or "infinite".

    I tell you this so that you will know that in its absence, we only can experience the mind. When we exit the mind, the Silence greets us and becomes us. In reality, it was Me all along; I just didn't know it. And then we know what that Silence is and that we never experienced it before. Even now I cannot experience it without intense and long meditation that is designed to stop the mind. And without that, I know I only experience mind.
     
  4. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    I didn't ask about your view. I asked about your understanding of enlightenment. My wording was not perfectly clear. I was aware of that.

    The answer is that to the enlightened consciousness, "I am one." There is but one. "I am, and I am not, and I am neither." I am not “Presence” nor am I the “presence of Absence”. Another way of expressing it is, "there is one 'IS' and I am all that IS."

    So, to the enlightened mind, family size is 1.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  5. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Your words show that, as you indicated, you have not experienced it. It is not as you describe. In the Silence you remain conscious, -in fact in that state of Silence you are more alert than you ever thought you could be, yet you are at peace. See my post #83 above.
     
  6. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wonderful. Since I came upon it without really trying, giving up on any effort, I have lost nothing by your claim. No effort, nothing lost. I am fine with that. Of course, I cannot accept any of your authority, having seen enough of the, " I know, but you do not know" crowd. I ditched authority on these issues long, long ago. Perhaps even before you were born. But I do value your opinion. But as someone once said in wisdom, what we are talking about is a pathless land. And so a guide is a waste of time, even if it provides something for the guide. That of course would include you. No offense intended, just stating what I see, and that is all.

    And I think this is why JC uttered that unless he go away the Paraclete cannot come unto you. Even his authority is a hindrance in this seeking and finding. But what is found is not contained in human memory, for it has been a totally unknown state of being. If you had known it, stored it in memory, you would no longer need to seek anything. One seeks what is unknown. If it becomes of the known, stored in memory, it is not the living reality I speak about. And so, for you to day what you did is incoherence, IMO. A living thing cannot be bound and contained in memory. You are trying to give out something that is of memory, or you would not have said what you said. For me this fails. And IMO, you are uttering ideas, and know nothing of that reality. Just an opinion.

    I think you sir are the one who should tread very carefully here as not not to buy into some delusion that you can actually, "know". The man who says he knows, doesn't know. A very wise Taoist saying.
     
  7. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    No effort; nothing gained either. I'm a bit surprised you didn't ask how I was able to enter the Silence, -the method.
    BTW, I'm old enough to have served in the military during the Vietnam War. And I did.


    Your treasured quote is false. A guide is indispensable if we are to save years of random effort. After 5 years of sitting at the feet of an enlightened Swami, I know whereof I speak. This is yours to do as you choose with it.


    Heh-heh-heh. Jesus was saying that disciples must overlook all as they turn within, including Jesus himself. And ultimately even the Christ within.


    "If you had known it" it would not be "stored in memory". This is not about memory, thinking, understanding, or knowing. It's about Being. Become familiar with the idea of the difference between "knowing" and "Knowing". But you are correct that you would not need to seek anything.


    There is a state beyond forgetting and remembering. Do you know how to ride a bike? Is that stored in memory? If it is, you could explain and share what you have of it in memory to a person who has never ridden a bike, and then that person would know with the same knowing you have, and they could immediately get up on a bike and ride it because they know as you do. But that is impossible.

    There are three domains of knowing. The first is essentially the result of study, reading, and remembering. The second is that of experience; having experienced riding a bike, you know how to ride it but you can't write the book to communicate it to anyone else. They must experience it for themselves. And the third is the domain of creating from nothing. Create the Silence and you will Know it.

    What you describe is between the first and the second category, like seeking the understanding of how photosynthesis works. What I'm talking about is in the third category.


    That only means you were not able to hear the inner voice that recognizes my inner voice.


    My words point to the Reality. It's up to you to see the Reality. All I have to point with are words. But to mistake it all for a fraudulent presentation of learned words that I repeat, is a grave error. The error is in your hearing.


    Again, you refer to knowing while I refer to Knowing, which is a difference of entire domains. So you judge wrongly. My direct, immediate experience of the Silence is what I described. Throw it in the trash. That's my advice to you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  8. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    No. I said you are not able to watch yourself in a situation when or where you do not watch yourself. So I would say no one knows oneself and is not even able to know oneself. You will know who you are in a situation in life where you are doing something what you never had thought that you are able to do it or that you will do it in this way and not in another way.

    I

    Yes. Existence itself is not memory. The Dalai Lama called the presence where we exist a ride on a razor-blade. Saint Augustinus spoke about this psychological phenomenon: presence in context with the past is memory, presence in context with presence is awareness and presence in context with the future is expectation.

    It is the word of god which brings everything into existence. Words sound. If we reduce our own noise then we are able to hear better.

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  9. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    Only to make this clear to you: You are not a pure seeker - you are a damned hateful antichristian and anti-semitic *******.

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  10. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I'm not convinced the two questions are quite equivalent. I imagine most Christians don't agree with the inquisitions and similar, so why is their goodness influenced by the inquisition if the gnostic Christian is not?

    Sorry for late answer, and for not having read the rest of the thread, in case this has been addressed.
     
  11. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Yin without Yang should be difficult and I can see why you would have a hard time explaining it.

    The term, God is love has been thrown at me many times, when interlocutors can no longer argue for God and hide behind that rather foolish notion.

    A hate bias forms the moment a love bias does.

    Unconditional love is complimented by unconditional hate.

    If you can have Yang without Yin, then you can also have Yin without Yang.

    Regards
    DL
     
  12. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    No way.

    If you cannot or do not think demographically, you are not enlightened.

    During my apotheosis, to think more demographically was the only instruction from the cosmic consciousness. I pass that on to you as I found it enlightening.

    If you seek to enter the all, then you must think of all.

    Regards
    DL
     
  13. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I admit to hating religions with immoral moral tenets. I am please you recognize me for what I am.

    Go get any quote of mine that shows I am anti-Semitic or be seen as a liar.

    Why are you standards not up to mine?

    Why do you resort to outright lies and cannot argue or do sensible apologetics for your satanic God?

    Come lie to us some more you pathetic piece of garbage.

    Regards
    DL
     
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Inquisitions, basically, is discrimination and violence against people without a just cause.

    If most Christians did not agree with or use Inquisitions today, there would not be any homophobia or misogyny in the Christian ideology.

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well sure, when self awareness of consciousness is not happening, of course there is no self awareness of consciousness. And this happens, until one becomes aware of this happening. I think that goes without saying. This is just the reality of daily existence.

    But I disagree that one cannot discern the movement of the ego, of thought, for this is just not my reality at all. All people are capable of introspection, of awareness of the movement of consciousness. That comes with self awareness. It is one thing which separates us from animals, in so far as we know. Of course it takes a particular quality of mind to do it, no doubt. And some of us just never do it, being too consumed with thought that runs up like little doggies wanted to be petted. Whether you pet it or not, or simply observe what thought is doing, not its content, but its movement is dependent upon the quality of mind present.

    For me I could not care less what the Dali Lama says. Why should I listen or follow him or anyone else when I have the source at my finger tips. If you get distracted by what someone else tells you, and never do the work yourself, for he cannot do a damn thing to help you or anyone, this is wasting time and energy. If it does not come by direct experience, by being in it, you are just using second handed knowledge. What I am talking about is harmed by people like the Dali Lama, and he would admit as much. He can't taste anything for you, only you or I can do that. And the tasting is directness, and another person, no matter how wise, will only get in the way. Yet this has to be discovered, for even me mentioning it is a waste of time, and yet I just wasted time.

    Spiritual authority is the most destructive thing, when it comes to this. It delays the necessary work, and I use work as a metaphor. I think this is why christ said that he must go away for otherwise the paraclete will not come unto you. He was speaking of himself as the authority figure. One can only point the way, and it is left up to the individual human to follow that way, or not. No one can do anything other than point in the right direction, but we tend to grab the damned finger and then worship it. Insuring one remains in ignorance.

    In daily existence, we operate from memory much of the time. I do not know how a self aware person cannot discern this. Thought is the response of memory. You can watch this easily, if one wants to do that. And you cannot separate the ego from memory. Not in reality. We are, the ego is, the content of memory. There is no ego without it. Yet in the silence of the mind there is something else although there is no way to know what it is. It just is. Thought can never grasp it, for it will push it away, as soon as thought enters into the equation. It is beyond thought and memory. Not of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  16. Anobsitar

    Anobsitar Banned

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    Where are you now?

    If you dance on a rope you are not able to drive car. We all are using for example the logic of Aristotle - but nearly no one thinks about Aristotle and how he came in our brain.

    Are we? We are able to control everything what we are - except our unconscious structures. How long are you able not to breath?

    That's a myth. Nothing separates us from animals. We are even more worse than animals. Looks like animal beings are often more human. An animal would not force human beings to drink liquide manure and would not spring on the swollen belly until it bursts because they like to feel and hear the pain and death cries of their victims.

    It is the best description of the present time I've ever heard. That's why I used his words. The Dalai Lama is by the way much more in the near of god than lots of people who call themselves "Christians". The example about human "animals" is for example from the 30 years war (1618-1648): Protestant Sweden soldiers against Catholic German farmers.

    Do you like to say you deny the experiences of 2500 years Buddhism because you have some strange new modern ideas?

    What a nonsense. Also in modern psychology exist for example lots of authorities of many schools. This is not bad nor good. "Who heals is right" - others are charlatans. I do not see anything what makes the Dalai Lama to a charlatan. He had helped his own people a lot. Other ethnic groups disappeared from this planet without big echo - the Tibetans still survived. Could be better - but is not the worst result.

    We call the Paraclete "Holy Spirit". The Holys Spirit has a full time job because lots of people ask him continuously to give them as sign what to do. Hem akes such crazy things like to send doves and fire tongues and such things.

    Not to trust in his father was not his favorite game. And what can I say. His trust ended not at the cross. Whatever - we are on the way from Easter to Pentecost now.

    Oh by the way. A compass of some pirates has a little problem in this context.

    Indeed it's a little more complex. We reorganize while we sleep and in the moment when we remember our memory. That's why 80% remember not very good "unimportant" details and bring things in wrong contexts. We often do not need "introspection" we need often "communication". But also communication is able to produce wrong prejudices and misunderstandings.

    There's no life without history. And sometimes we remember something of this history. Most not the awkward moments. Sometimes we could wish not to remember - for example in case of a posttraumatic stress disorder. But not every bad memory is really bad. For example it is not good to ignore bad experiences with alcohol and drugs.

    It's the play of agonists and antagonists which lets us step forward - the play of contraction and relaxation. Silence is relaxation but is also able to be stress.

     
  17. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You refer only to human love. You cannot possibly know Unconditional Love until it is experienced. There, yin and yang opposites cease. That is why it is "unconditional". It is not conditioned upon who or what is present, or who or what the subject is. If hate is possible, love is conditioned upon not hating. Hence such a love is not unconditional but rather exists in the domain of human opposites.
     
  18. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where am I now, at this current moment? I am in the ego mode, or memory and thought. Yet aware of where consciousness is. As the brain operates from memory, I am able to respond to you. Very important for posting, but also survival. Yet this is only a part of the state of actual consciousness. There are other states of consciousness and one of those states does not feature a brain consumed with thought, feelings, etc. I think both are essential to an orderly and moral existence. Lacking the state where the mind is silent perhaps creates all sort of problems, if nothing more than psychologically. Being in inner conflict, worry, fragmentation, an inner experience can manifest itself and create disorder in what we call that which is outside of us.Seeing this fact, not intellectually, but another kind of seeing tends to change something. Of course, I can only speak honestly from personal experience, reciting what is observed. Someone who has not been to where I am speaking has no reference and might appear to be nonsense, Having an entrenched, in concrete belief system, not based upon an experience in consciousness, but simply using the words of some spiritual or religious authority, concepts, ideas, IMO is a grand waste of valuable time. If one is at all serious about this topic. It is a pathless land, with no guides that can help you. Yes, someone can point in the right direction, but that is all that they can do. As I said earlier, what man tends to do is to grab the pointing finger, and cling to it, while never moving in the direction of the pointing finger. I see christ as doing that, and instead of following the path he pointed to, man grabbed his finger and as man has tended to do, worshiped it. And in doing so they never took one single stop onto that path.

    You stated a couple things about silence, the silence of a silent mind. That it can be relaxation but also stress. For me this is just an impossibility to be in a state of silence, no movement of thought, and suffer stress in this state of being. There may be a great deal of energy in a silent mind, for energy is not being used by thought, the mind creating images, and so on. I am not speaking of the gap between two thoughts, that one might call silence. The silence I refer to is that silence which exists when thought has stopped moving, when its activity is no more, and then and only then is there a silent mind. It seems to be a state of being where there is no experiencer, no center, as an ego. A mind where there is no center at all. Duality, between the thinker and the thought, the experience and the experiencer has gone away. Not to worry, he always comes back. ha ha
     
  19. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    "You cannot possibly know Unconditional Love until it is experienced."

    That goes without saying.

    I am a human and interested in what being the best possible human is. If a human and human consciousness cannot experience something, then it cannot exist in us ans seeking it is a waste of time.

    "It is not conditioned upon who or what is present, or who or what the subject is."

    So you can unconditionally love murder and or murderers. Ok.

    Regards
    DL
     
  20. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    -for a human. You say you are a human. The bible says that Jesus said "I am in the world but not of the world". Mystics all say you are not your body or mind. So who/what is "I"? Jesus answered that. Mystics say your true being exists prior to the arising of any concepts. Apprehending this is being dead to the “I am the body” while alive. Even the experience that you are, is not your true nature. You said if a human and human consciousness cannot experience something, then it cannot exist in "us" (human body/mind complex) and seeking it is a waste of time (to the creature). Since all benefit to the creature is in the world, what you say is true. So as long as we see ourselves as the body, we identify with the body and act contrary to the Reality identified by Jesus and all mystics of all religions. At that point, seeking stops. The question is "who am I?" You say you have made up your mind that you are your body/mind complex. That ends the search. Get a good game going and be happy.


    Doesn't the bible say Jesus did? All mystics do. They see Reality beyond the creature and Know the oneness that remains unchanged by the deed.
     

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