The OTHER September 11, the CIA strikes again

Discussion in 'History & Past Politicians' started by Eleuthera, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,464
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Moi621 likes this.
  2. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If by 'we' you mean the Chilean military then sure, 'we' did over throw Allende. The US encouraged & backed the coup plotters, but to act as if Chileans were mere support actors in their own country is the sort of simplistic tripe the left has been churning out for decades.

    As for the 'destructiveness' of the coup, if you talk to enough Chileans in private you will still find serious disagreements about Allende & his government. There were no shortage of coup supporters in Chile, and not just at the top of Chilean society.

    I know a lot of Chileans, some of whom had family directly involved in the events of 1973. They understand it was primarily a disagreement among Chileans about Chilean issues, even if outsiders want to treat them like helpless victims or sinister US 'stooges'. The US role in this was significant, but nowhere near as significant as the domestic issues involved. Sadly there will always be misguided people who seek to excuse the actions of Chileans and shift all the blame elsewhere.
     
    Margot2 and Bowerbird like this.
  3. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,464
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I suppose if one looked hard enough, one could find Iranians who felt the same way about our installation of the Shah.

    However the fact remains that we caused the overthrow of a legitimately elected leader and installed a murderous dictator in his place, and that we have done that all around the globe for many long decades, and we're still trying in Venezuela.
     
  4. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I doubt you would have had to look all that hard. Perhaps start with people in the electorates whose votes were not counted in the 1952 election because Mossedegh stopped the counting of votes because he knew that if they were he could lose the election. Then move on to the people who were unhappy that he then set himself up as a dictator and ruled by decree. I suspect you could have thrown a stone into a crowd and found people who weren't too sad about the Shah coming in, or at the very least not too sad about his predecessor being removed.

    America was involved in the overthrow of Allende. It was caused by serious domestic issues in Chile - a nation with a history of fractious politics (the '100+ years of unbroken democratic rule' always hid more than it explained). That isn't just a matter of semantics, it is fundamental to any understanding of what happened. Unfortunately generations of conditioning by the likes of Chomsky have left many on the left unable to understand that non-white people actually have their own reasons for acting and are capable of doing so on their own initiative. That the US or another outside nation might be involved in events in no way changes this.

    BTW Mossedegh wasn't a 'legitimately elected leaders' when he was overthrown & Maduro isn't one now. I bet if you throw a stone into a crowd in Venezuela you'd find someone who would love to see the dictator Maduro removed. Of course, he has so starved his own people that even a small stone would probably knock the person over. Another triumph of autocratic socialism.
     
  5. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    32,200
    Likes Received:
    6,212
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well as long as we didnt spend $100k making facebook posts, it's not really interfering in another country 's electoral process
     
  6. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,464
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You sound like you might write talking points for a government agency....
     
  7. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You sound like the sort of person who needs to believe that about anyone who brings facts to the table they don't like.

    I read, I research & I try to understand what actually happens. Not the myth or the conspiracy theory, but the verifiable facts. Interestingly enough once you actually start to read a bit you find out all sorts of things that people have convinced themselves about don't hold up - like Mossedegh being some paragon of democracy or the US being to blame for pretty much everything (both things I used to believe as strongly as you apparently do). I can see why you might be keen to dismiss me. Most people who have drunk enough of the Chomskyite kool aide are.
     
    Margot2 likes this.
  8. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,464
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    To be perfectly honest, I was persuaded about the Chilean shenanigans by Naomi Klein's excellent book "The Shock Doctrine" about 'disaster capitalism' written in 2007.

    Her sources and footnotes were far more persuasive than your recitation of government propaganda, sorry.
     
  9. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Trophy Points:
    113
    What 'government propaganda' would that be? Pointing out that Chileans had their own reasons for conflict in the early 70s (and for a fair chunk of the preceding 150 years)? Pointing out that Chileans actually did the fighting, overthrowing & oppressing? Pointing out that the US was involved? Pointing out that treating non-whites as extras in events where they were actually the primary participants is not only factually wrong but smacks of prejudice?

    By all means point to the 'government propaganda' that looks anything like that. Please. Give me the links. Point me in the right direction. Of course, if you are yet again throwing out the 'government propaganda' line as a sort of rote learned defence against uncomfortable facts and an informed perspective then you can just save your time. Throw out a few more rote learned phrases instead. its good for a laugh.

    I will admit that rather than reading a book by some Canadian with no particular insight into Chilean history, politics or society I actually talked to quite a few Chileans with a wide range of opinions. I also watched a bunch of films by decidedly left wing Chileans and read some actual history. Clearly that was my first mistake. I should have gone with the Canadian who writes books about capitalism. Always a first stop for any student of history (after globalresearch, of course, Can't forget that as a source). Yeah, you got me beat there.
     
    Margot2 likes this.
  10. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,464
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Shoot the messenger BigFella. That's always a tactic desired by the government types.
     
  11. bigfella

    bigfella Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Just as I suspected. All rote learned responses, no actual substance.
     
  12. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2015
    Messages:
    7,464
    Likes Received:
    2,669
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Plenty of substance, but not your style.
     
  13. Scott

    Scott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2008
    Messages:
    2,839
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I've only spoken to two people who were in Chile before and after Allende. One was a young woman whose parents told her, "If you don't work, you don't eat. Don't get involved in politics". They were telling her she'd be risking getting kidnapped and tortured by supporting the left.

    The other person told me that before Allende there wasn't much fresh fruit around as most of it went to the US. During Allende there was a lot of fresh fruit available as Allende put a stop to American imperialism in Chile by nationalizing plantations and mines, etc that US companies had managed to get underhandedly. After Allende fruit became scarce again as Pinochet let the Americans back in and returned their expropriated property.

    http://www.rrojasdatabank.info/econom~1.htm
    https://www.google.com/search?q=the...e.1.69i57j0.7898j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/american-imperialism.371897/

    This film is pretty good.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_(1982_film)

    I couldn't find it online though.
     

Share This Page