The Problem of Health Care

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Oct 21, 2019.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here we go again. More drivel from the Rabid Right about how Anything "Socialist" is bad for America. Dumb is as dumb does!

    Here is a breakdown of how healthcare is provided to Americans today:
    [​IMG]

    What does the above show? Here is the "Source of Health Insurance Coverage" breakdown in terms of Percentage Coverage of the total:
    *Medicare covers ONLY 16.4% of the total population. The Military covers 4.6%. The total US Government provided health is therefore only 21% of the total.
    *Of the total under 65 years of age (84%) must seek non-institutional healthcare-insurance elsewhere.
    *Of the grouping "Non-institutional" (under 65) alone there are three breakdowns:
    **Employer based insurance is nationally (155 divided by 324) almost half the total Actual Population at
    48%.
    **Other coverage (90 divided by 324) is
    27% of the Actual Population, and the
    **
    Uninsured (27 divided by 324) are 8% of the total Actual Population. (That is, uninsured 27 million Americans is the equivalent of the second-largest state after California!)

    What the above does not show is the "cost of insurance" by group. Of which can be said this:
    *In the third column there is most of the PRIVATE EMPLOYER-BASED HEALTH-INSURANCE COVERAGE (of
    155 million American workers).
    *
    Which is 48% of the total population and costs the proverbial "arm-and-a-leg" - and is recuperated by companies within their Total Cost-Pricing to customers.
    *So, sucker, YOU are the one paying for it ... !

    My Point:
    *It is useless to employ private insurance in such a critical lifespan-element as is Healthcare. We should be all equal as citizens and our healthcare coverage should come out of Government Taxation. (Just like the defense of the nation!)
    *And that money-sum could be provided very largely from Much Higher Upper-income Taxation (of our 1-percenters)!

    Quad erat demonstrandum ...
     
  2. Ernest T.

    Ernest T. Newly Registered

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    The Medicare For All mantra seems to have the left a little worried. Hence the speculation of some late Dem entries.
     
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  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Mantra? What planet do you live on?

    Idaho ... ?
     
  4. kreo

    kreo Well-Known Member

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    Private insurances are just parasites there is absolutely no reason they should exist.
     
  5. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They exist the world over for most consumer and business spending. They fulfill a need that you apparently do not understand.

    Forbid them, and the World Economy collapses ...
     
  6. kreo

    kreo Well-Known Member

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    I am talking about large scale health insurances, those guys are US phenomenon. The only reason they exist is an unconstitutional ban on Medicare.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  7. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    Government provided health care or coverage hurts poor people the most. It creates a two-tier health care system where the poor are forced into the low-quality government system. It also does nothing to reduce the biggest problem in health in the US--unhealthy lifestyles. 70% of health issues are linked to lifestyle choices. Placing the burden of these choices on others only encourages people to continue in such unhealthy choices.

    Anyone who supports this wants poor people to die.
     
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  8. kreo

    kreo Well-Known Member

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    I think you are mistaken, the only government based health care system in the US is a health care for US veterans.
    For the majority of population the health care system is private, i.e. it absolutely identical for Medicare/Medicaid/Private Insurance patients. In fact most of the private insurances cover much less then Medicare and even Medicaid.
     
  9. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    Over 50% of US health care costs are paid for by one government program or another, and considering how regulated the entire industry is it's almost entirely controlled by the government.
     
  10. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    THE FACTUAL EVIDENCE REGARDING HEALTHCARE - US VS EUROPE

    The factual reference underlying your claim in red above is from the Lancet (in the UK) and not about the US. Though I will grant you that the percentage in the US is probably even higher. Nonetheless, the life-span in the UK is 81-years, whilst in the US it is like this:
    We have in Europe nearly free National Healthcare Systems. It costs me $20 to see my GP not $200 (average) as it does for you in the US. My GP in France makes $120K annually on average whilst yours makes $210K. (See here from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, line 29-1062, Family and General Practitioners)

    And what is the principle consequence of the highly differing costs of Healthcare Systems, between the US and Europe?

    This:
    [​IMG]

    That difference is visually about 3-years, Europe longer than the US.

    Do you get the
    point that I am trying to make? "Life choices" have very little to do with overall healthcare in the aggregate. Yes, some people decide to kill themselves by being alcoholics and others popping opioid-sedatives.

    Still, in the aggregate, a National Healthcare System not only saves lives, but prevents deaths
    and thus extends average individual-longevity. Opioids never ever made it into public consumption in the EU. They require a GP's prescription, and the GPs have been made aware of their danger under prolonged usage.

    The US has this pernicious idea that only a free-market system can assure the medical-attention necessary to obtain extended life-spans. As if ER's where the magic potion to precisely that end. When, in fact, the opposite is true. Overall healthcare requires that healthcare practitioners be accessible to the widest number possible of the population - and not just those who have a job that provides the HC-insurance coverage.

    MY POINT

    There are no "ERs" in Europe. There are - however - national healthcare-systems that have proven to extend European lifespan four years longer than in the US. One year has just been added to that number because of a lack of US government-oversight in the recent Opioid Crisis that has cost you-plural more than a hundred lives every day!* ...

    *From here:
    Opioid Crisis Fast Facts - excerpt:
     
  11. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    So the huge percentage of Americans that are obese and overweight don't have any effect on health outcomes? Riiiiiiight.
     
  12. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    Insurance is not healthCARE.

    Why would you support paying for a front loaded payment mechanism, which does nothing to actually provide care?
     
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  13. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    How much of your income is paid in taxes to support your NHS?
    No ER? What happens if you are cut and bleeding out?
     
  14. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I frankly don't give-a-damn! I have employed my Healthcare Insurance here in France often enough to understand that the cost is not only worth it, but the personnel are Very Professional.

    There is a rating of Healthcare Systems. France, when I first noticed the rating a good many years ago was once Number 1 out of the top ten. Now it is tenth, just ahead of Uncle Sam! (Which I find unbelievable since I know both, and France's healthcare is just as professional and far, far, far less individually costly! Moreover, like it or not, everyone who lives and works in France is a member because their taxation contributes to it.)

    An international rating of medical-service systems is here:
    [​IMG]

    No, there's no ER. Because one is not needed. Everybody who pays taxes in France is covered by the National Healthcare System.

    There is (all over France) a common emergency-number to be called. It's a quick-dial five-figure number (that most people put into the smartphones memory) that either the victim of an accident or somebody witnessing the event will call and an ambulance WITH A DOCTOR IN IT will arrive.

    And I have personally witnessed such an occasion ...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, I don't.

    I am an American living in France and use its National Healthcare Service - which has government-fixed visitation and operation rates. Like the police-force investigates/solves crimes, a National Healthcare Service (NHS) investigates and cures illness in Europe.

    A NHS here is like an insurance-program for healthcare services whenever you need it. Just like the healthcare insurance-plan of many companies in the US - except that in Europe it is a government service that runs the program. And some doctors work within the system at hospitals that the government runs, and their salaries are specified by the NHS. And other medical-doctors prefer to remain private, and so they obtain a government salary (of about the same rate) in line with their qualifications but they operate out of their own offices. (Other doctors are private and provide services for work not covered by the NHS. Like plastic-surgery.)

    A GP in France earns around 120K Euros ($134K) whilst in the US the average salary (according to the BLS here) is $211K. In France, that salary is stipulated by the NHS. There is NO NON-GOVERNMENTAL INSURANCE FOR HEALTHCARE IN EUROPE (that I know of).

    Meaning what: These two factors:
    *Europe has a generally better Healthcare System,
    *And it is significantly less expensive than the privatized American HC-services.
    *For exactly the same level of HC-services.

    Moreover,
    since the government also oversees the sales of medicines, Europe has not suffered from an Opioid Epidemic because opioids are only provided under subscription by doctors who limit the consumption (given the possible danger) ...
     
  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course they do.

    I was referring to "Health Care" not individual health. Healthcare in Europe is better, and thus lifespan is higher. Just what is it that you don't understand?

    Or are you just throwing sticks-'n-stones because you've got nothing else .. ?
     
  17. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And in that regard, I would mention this from here:
     
  18. kreo

    kreo Well-Known Member

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    It is actually controlled by private cartel.
    Cartel is represented by numerous organizations that have a power of a government. Government diligently fulfill the orders of the private government making special regulation that do not allow any competition or anything that could reduce the cost of health care.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  19. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    Funny how this doesn’t happen in any other first world nation that has single payer systems.
     
  20. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It would be nice if you could flesh-out that message. You've posted an interesting riddle.

    However, it requires more factual evidence. As the comment stands, it is just more One-liner Unverified Polemic better posted on a Message Board.

    Whereas this is a Debate Forum. Do you understand the difference ... ?
     
  21. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    For instance, from here:
    The Medical Cartel is Keeping Health Care Costs High - excerpt:
    Or here: Are Doctors Overpaid? - excerpt

    Definition of cartel: An association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  22. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    Actually that's exactly what happened. In the UK they found that the life expectancy difference between the wealthy and the poor increased after they created the NHS. Only those Canadians with the money to afford it come to the US to escape their system. Happens all the time.
     
  23. Liberty_One

    Liberty_One Active Member

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    True enough. Of course cartels never work without government support.
     
  24. rahl

    rahl Well-Known Member

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    Except none of that is true. Single payer and universal healthcare systems provide better outcomes for all persons at a fraction of the cost than our system. This is empirical reality.

    https://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
  25. kreo

    kreo Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever heard about
    Certificate of Need
    The concept of the CON first arose in the field of health care and was passed first in New York in 1964 and then into federal law during the Richard Nixon administration in 1972

    How about Balanced Budget Act?
    https://bancroft.berkeley.edu/ROHO/projects/debt/balancedbudgetact.html
    https://qz.com/1676207/the-us-is-on-the-verge-of-a-devastating-doctor-shortage/

    Who have asked for those draconian measures that reduce number of providers and jack up prices. The person who decide to balance a budget by reducing numbers of providers either extremely stupid (unfamiliar with supply/demand economic laws) or evil who act in the interest of special groups.

    How about these laws
    The practice of reimportation is illegal in the US (the legal exceptions are those drugs which are manufactured in the US, and may be reimported by the original manufacturer or if the prescription drug is required for 'emergency medical care') (Creech 2001).


    Also who do you think approves the existence of Medical Schools?
    It is done by strictly private organizations
    Establishing a new U.S. medical school requires obtaining accreditation from the national accrediting body for MD granting degree programs, the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME)

    Do you know what Medical Board is?
    --------------------------
    A medical "board" is an organization that doctors can join by meeting the requirements for membership. Whether that doctor is a specialist or a primary care physician, they may decide that demonstrating that level of competency will enhance her esteem and career standing among colleagues and patients.

    --------------------------

    Those PRIVATE organizations including American Medical Association at the top are the Medical Cartel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019

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