The search for dark matter

Discussion in 'Science' started by Bishadi, Apr 18, 2011.

  1. BFSmith@764

    BFSmith@764 Banned

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    Dark......:)
     
  2. XVZ

    XVZ Banned

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    Well consider the palm of your hand. What is it made of? How can you use it to hold objects? How can you see it is there?

    Essentially all the answers boil down to force fields. Molecules form the cohesion that holds the structure of your palm into a stable configuration. The molecules are bindings of atoms which themselves consist of protons/neutrons and electrons. The protons and neutrons are further divided into three quarks each. So when we consider what is this structure, the palm, made of, we end up with the answer of quarks and electrons.

    The space between electrons and the nucleus of protons/neutrons is essentially completely empty. Even each proton or neutron is essentially empty with the three quarks each holding a tiny real estate of what we think of as the proton/neutron boundary. The only thing that gives rise to the structure we are familiar with are the forces those essentially non-space occupying waves/particles/whatever (the quarks and electrons) impart and interact with.

    So when you consider a wave/particle/whatever that has no interaction with the forces with which we are familiar (electromagnetic, weak, strong) then it is no surprise that they are able to freely float about. After all, everything - even your seemingly solid palm - is essentially empty space.
     
  3. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe there are any observations to validate the theory?

    Expansion of the Universe might be from the BB, or from 'dark matter', or maybe something we don't know about gravity, or something we simply don't yet know.

    I think the answer to all of this is 'we don't know'...
     
  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    I think I read that ~75% of the Universe is 'dark matter' or 'not visible matter'. So I guess this means that my palm is about 75% void of matter. My brain is probably closer to 95% void of matter.

    So this 'dark matter' or whatever it might be, is theorized to occupy the ~75% void of matter whether at the micro or macro levels. I'm assuming dark energy has some level of power or strength, for example enough control that it can hold quarks and electrons together yet enough to control galaxies and solar systems and the Universe. Seems to me it should be constant power at the micro levels which means the Universe is filled with micro-particles, of which we have not yet identified what these might be. But is it possible to hold together an entire Universe with just the dark energy power available at the micro-levels...
     
  5. XVZ

    XVZ Banned

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    I am not sure where you are getting the 75% figure. All the energy in the universe that we can detect through the electromagnetic, weak, and strong interactions, which means all the atoms in your body, this planet, the sun and universe - all the photons which comprise the electromagnetic spectrum - all of that is ~4% of the energy in the universe.

    Dark Matter is ~25% and Dark Energy is ~70%.

    Now when it is said that Dark Matter is 25% of energy of the universe, that doesn't mean that Dark Matter occupies 25% of the space of the universe. Likewise, just because 4% of the universe is the type of matter we are familiar with, doesn't mean that you are comprised of 4% normal matter, 25% dark matter, and 70% dark energy.

    Galaxies are essentially disc-like conglomerations of normal matter. But we know from gravity that the dark matter is spherical around galaxies and the disc of normal matter is like a flat plane through that sphere.

    Also, when I said that the space between quarks and electrons was vast and that they essentially take up no space, it was not a figurative statement. The atoms in your body are 99.99999999% empty space and it is even possible that the real answer is 100% empty in that there is no underlying structure. The force fields associated with the electromagnet, weak, and strong interactions is all that keeps normal matter from falling in on itself and forms atoms with the structure in which they have or that prevents your left palm from passing through your right palm.
     
  6. Anarcho-Technocrat

    Anarcho-Technocrat New Member

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    May indeed just be empty space considering the fact that the electron has no size and its mass is quite possibly just the result of moving through the electromagnetic field.
     
  7. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    When you get old you also will not remember precise facts and figures...who knows where I read stuff??

    But my body must be composed of some percentage of normal matter, dark matter, and dark energy. If the goal is to find a theory which works with both the macro and micro worlds, wouldn't this imply the make-up of my body is somewhat similar to the make-up of the Universe?

    If the dark matter is spherical and the normal matter is a flat disc, yet they occupy the same space, this sounds to me like each is operating from very separate science, or math, or dimensions, or laws.

    Seems to me the unifying factor between the atoms in my body and the atoms in normal matter and dark matter and dark energy...is the force fields of the em, weak and strong interactions.

    I'm a farmer so please excuse my comments if they don't seem knowledgeable to astrophysics. I obviously have a million more questions and curiosity than I do knowledge...
     
  8. waltky

    waltky Well-Known Member

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    Granny says, "If ya wanna see a buncha dark matter, look in Uncle Ferd's closet - its fulla dark matter...
    :hmm:
    Dark matter filament found, scientists say
    July 04, 2012 | Astrophysicists say they have discovered one strand of the long-elusive dark matter filaments, thought to connect galaxies and help shape the universe.
     
  9. Anarcho-Technocrat

    Anarcho-Technocrat New Member

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    Wtf are you babbling about? Energy (light) exchanging from the surrounding mass is causing dark matter...? Dark Matter doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force which is why it was coined "dark" matter, it doesn't radiate electromagnetic energy and it doesn't absorb electromagnetic energy. The Casimir Effect is the appearance of a pseudo-negative energy density in between two plates nanometers apart. You get this "negative energy density" by integrating the energy outside of the plates which happen to be infinite and then integrate the energy between the plates which also happen to be infinite but less than the infinite energy outside of the plates and thus you are left with a negative energy density which causes an attractive force. This occurs by excluding vacuum excitation between the plates such that there are more virtual pairs created outside of the two plates rather than in between. Van Der Waal Forces are the sum of all the attractive and repulsive forces in a given system of particles. But then again you should know all of this yea?
     
  10. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    That was never a fact.. it could just be really small.
     
  11. Anarcho-Technocrat

    Anarcho-Technocrat New Member

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    All the experimental evidence suggests it has no size at all.
     
  12. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    but your math, shares all them particles (virtually)


    that statement you had argued with the the happpy, is evidencing that particles dont exist.

    but you are a physic major in the particle game


    How many people can see how lack of integrity is the same problem with many of physics as with preachers of theology?
     
  13. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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  14. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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  15. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    Derivative expansion of the electromagnetic Casimir energy for two thin mirrors

    Cesar D. Fosco, Fernando C. Lombardo, Francisco D. Mazzitelli

    (Submitted on 8 Mar 2012 (v1), last revised 7 Jun 2012 (this version, v2))

    We extend our previous work on a derivative expansion for the Casimir energy, to the case of the electromagnetic field coupled to two thin, imperfect mirrors. The latter are described by means of vacuum polarization tensors localized on the mirrors. We apply the results so obtained to compute the first correction to the proximity force approximation to the static Casimir effect

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1855



    or here is another http://iopscience.iop.org/1742-6596/110/6/062018/pdf/1742-6596_110_6_062018.pdf

    if someone wants to calculate for use.


    A. T....... you keep learning and someday, you might see what em is to nature.
     
  16. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    So it's a singularity? Infinitely dense?

    You can't even see it; it's too small.

    "suggest" ? You said this was a "fact".

    Show me some "experimental evidence" please.
     
  17. Anarcho-Technocrat

    Anarcho-Technocrat New Member

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    I misspoke when I said it was a "fact" and while it is possible for it have some internal structure beyond 10^-22m is unlikely although not impossible. The reason it wouldn't be considered a black hole is because we are dealing with a creature in quantum field theory bot general relativity. We are not sure what a black hole even is on small small scales.
     
  18. happy fun dude

    happy fun dude New Member

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    No problem.. I didn't say it was a black hole lol... We'd probably notice that!

    Singularity. Its density would be infinite.

    Anyway I had noticed people questioning the postulate about it being a point particle, or even spherical, and making calculations about its size (estimate), and while not zero, pretty darn small!

    Of course I'm looking at the work of others; I haven't made such calculations!
     
  19. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    black holes dont exist.

    hubble proved the galaxies dont rotate as predicted (mass curve: go read on it)
     
  20. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    black holes dont exist.

    hubble proved the galaxies dont rotate as predicted (mass curve: go read on it)
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible that so-called black holes are the engine which collects space stuff and spews space stuff creating an infinite revolving door of space stuff?

    Question about black holes; if they are a 'hole' then where does the 'hole lead? It cannot be bottomless...right? And it's a 'hole' in what...local space, a solar system, a galaxy? I can grasp the x & y of a black hole but can anyone explain the z axis?
     
  22. Bishadi

    Bishadi Banned

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    more like an assembly of star systems associating like a hurricane.

    what is bottomless?

    where's the top?
     
  23. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    But if it is possible that most galaxies have a black hole, or super-massive black hole, perhaps this black hole in some way is the engine for that galaxy??

    Well...the top might be the event horizon. In this case, what is the shape of a black hole? Is it spherical with a singularity like our Universe? Is it a flat-sphere? What determines it's size?

    Lastly, if anything that meets the event horizon is sucked into the black hole, over billions of years, what's to keep black holes from consuming everything visible?
     
  24. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    A black hole could be an engine for a galaxy.

    A black hole's influence would be spherical. Its size is determined by its gravitational pull.

    Some people have put forth the hypothesis that black holes could eventually "swallow up" everything.

    But space would keep a black hole from swallowing everything. If the universe is expanding faster than black holes.....well.

    Gravitational pull decreases as distance increases.
     
  25. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    If you get a chance read some of Issac Asimov's non fiction science books.

    He was great at explaining things to laymen like me.

    He claims that in a black hole matter collapses upon itself and does not occupy space.
     

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