This Is the ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE, We're Supposed to Trust

As thousands upon thousands of civilians have died in Gaza, in what to all appearances has been the collective punishment of Palestinians, in Israel's air campaign against Hamas, Israel (and their PF defenders) have been telling us that the IDF has only been bombing military targets. They would seem to know, based on the scale of the devastation, the whereabouts of every cache of Hamas weapons in Gaza.

But new reporting from the New York Times, tells an utterly incredible tale of incompetence, in the vaulted Israeli Intelligence apparatus. Israel came into possession of Hamas's detailed invasion plans, a full year, in advance, but did not take them seriously. This, despite getting warnings from other countries, shortly before October 7, that something significant was afoot, from Hamas. Despite Israel having full control of the internet in Gaza (meaning that they could see anything communicated online), which Hamas must have used, in the planning of anything of this scale. Despite that this summer, Hamas ran a dress rehearsal of the plan, which was reported by an Israeli intelligence analyst, as being the same Hamas plan, in Israel's possession, but a colonel brushed it off.

This is very important for us to understand, as we consider giving billions of dollars more, to these same people. For them to have the actual plans which Hamas had used, and still take no precautions, is just incredible. But the IDF had done worse than that: they had even transferred the troops that would normally be protecting the border fence, to the West Bank, leaving the fence unguarded. One must wonder, if this was a stupendous failure of intelligence, and security protocols, or if it might have even been orchestrated.

How high up the chain of command, had these plans been passed? It seems likely that P.M. Netanyahu would have been notified, if such plans had been discovered by Israeli Intelligence. This is important to know, because the only thing keeping Netanyahu in power at the moment, is this war. Therefore, extending the war would seem to be to his political benefit, though to the detriment of both Palestinian civilians and Israeli soldiers. And a prolongation of the conflict, is not what we in the U.S., wish to be funding.

I wonder how many Israel boosters, here, do not even want to get the answers, as to how this was allowed to occur?


<Snip>
Israeli officials obtained Hamas’s battle plan for the Oct. 7 terrorist attack more than a year before it happened, documents, emails and interviews show. But Israeli military and intelligence officials dismissed the plan as aspirational, considering it too difficult for Hamas to carry out.

The approximately 40-page document, which the Israeli authorities code-named “Jericho Wall,” outlined, point by point, exactly the kind of devastating invasion that led to the deaths of about 1,200 people...

Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision. The document called for a barrage of rockets at the outset of the attack, drones to knock out the security cameras and automated machine guns along the border, and gunmen to pour into Israel en masse in paragliders, on motorcycles and on foot — all of which happened on Oct. 7.

The plan also included details about the location and size of Israeli military forces, communication hubs and other sensitive information, raising questions about how Hamas gathered its intelligence and whether there were leaks inside the Israeli security establishment.

The document circulated widely among Israeli military and intelligence leaders, but experts determined that an attack of that scale and ambition was beyond Hamas’s capabilities, according to documents and officials. It is unclear whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu or other top political leaders saw the document, as well...

Then, in July, just three months before the attacks, a veteran analyst with Unit 8200,
Israel’s signals intelligence agency, warned that Hamas had conducted an intense, daylong training exercise that appeared similar to what was outlined in the blueprint.

But a colonel in the Gaza division brushed off her concerns, according to encrypted emails viewed by The Times.

“I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary,” the analyst wrote in the email exchanges. The Hamas training exercise, she said, fully matched “the content of Jericho Wall.”

“It is a plan designed to start a war,” she added. “It’s not just a raid on a village.”

Officials privately concede that, had the military taken these warnings seriously and redirected significant reinforcements to the south, where Hamas attacked, Israel could have blunted the attacks or possibly even prevented them.
<End Snip>

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/...hamas-attack-intelligence.html?smid=url-share


Later in the article, is related that Israel had uncovered & collected earlier iterations of this plan, for years. A 2016 intelligence memo, passed along the judgement that Hamas had decided to move its next confrontation, into Israeli territory. Later in 2016, the Defense Minister at the time had written of an earlier version of the plan, "that an invasion and hostage-taking would 'lead to severe damage to the consciousness and morale of the citizens of Israel.'" So it sounds as if at least some had been taking it seriously.


<Snip>
The memo, which was viewed by The Times, said that Hamas had purchased sophisticated weapons, GPS jammers and drones. It also said that Hamas had increased its fighting force to 27,000 people — having added 6,000 to its ranks in a two-year period. Hamas had hoped to reach 40,000 by 2020, the memo determined.
<End>

 

I think you're overthinking this. Israeli intelligence underestimated Hamas and didn't take the threat seriously.

It happens more often than you think.

Rumors have it that the United States had intelligence that something was going to happen before the 9/11/2001 terrorist attacks, for example.

 

I don't think it was 'incompetence.' Seems like about half the western world is suddenly OK with genociding Palestinians. I'm going with 'inside job' on this one, of the 9/11 variety.

They knew about the attack, coulda stopped it, but didn't because of how useful a high body count would be in selling their response to it.

 

Yes, maybe-- that something was going to happen. Not the actual plan, saying that terrorists would take off from those particular airports, in order to hit those particular targets. In fact, on the first page of the Hamas document, was a quote from the Quran, saying, "Surprise them through the gate. If you do, you will certainly prevail.” On the day they were practicing this plan, they were yelling out that same quote! And yet the Colonel just blew it off.

I am not saying, this wasn't just gross negligence. But that speaks to the type of leadership, calling the shots in the Gaza campaign-- doesn't it? I mean, how can they have these documents circulating, and then not pick up on any of the planning, so that blowing off a large scale dry run, is left to the call of a single colonel? And why wouldn't important calls in the current campaign then, not similarly fall to some officer, who might have a highly colored view of Palestinians?

 

Of course, that is not what the Times is suggesting. But I wouldn't completely rule it out, either. What is important, is to investigate what happened-- not after the war, but now. That would quite possibly clear up, whether this was just one, presumptuous colonel, or if he had been acting under the instructions of anyone in government.

 

Exactly and that error produced horrifying results.

Oh good Lord, you've gone Fat Michael Moore on us. Are you seriously claiming that Israel deliberately allowed the mass slaughter and mass of rape of Jews, just so they could justify eradicating Hamas?

Israel Pounds Southern Gaza As Officials Say 'Long War' Expected For A Year Or More

"This will be a very long war... We’re currently not near halfway to achieving our objectives."

'Hamas refused to release ten more women captives. This violated the terms of the agreement, which specified that Hamas would first release all women and children being held in Gaza in exchange for Israel agreeing to a truce for as long as nine days.'

'Israel is planning a campaign against Hamas of the most intensive phase of the ground offensive continuing into early 2024. The multi-phase strategy envisages Israeli forces, who are garrisoned inside north Gaza, making an imminent push deep into the south of the besieged Palestinian enclave.'

'The goals include killing the three top Hamas leaders — Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Marwan Issa — while securing “a decisive” military victory against the group’s 24 battalions and underground tunnel network and destroying its “governing capability in Gaza”.'

“Israel’s overall strategy for Gaza is flexible, with timing dictated by multiple “clocks”, including operational progress on the ground, international pressure and opportunities to free Israeli hostages.'

Hamas surrendering and releasing the hostages would go a long ways toward ending this.

 

I read this and I am going to say, I'm not really surprised. Of course, someone or many knew the likelihood and the intelligence. I think this is the end of their corrupt "leader" and that's a good thing for the future.

 

How Hamas Destroyed The Ceasefire

'A big factor was Thursday's terror attack involving a pair of Palestinian gunmen who unleashed M16 and pistol fire on a crowd waiting at a Jerusalem bus stop, killing three Israelis and injuring 16. Shortly after the attack, Hamas claimed responsibility.'

That certainly appeared to me that Hamas was ending the ceasefire.

 

I don’t really see how an intelligence screw up is a justification for letting Israel get wiped off the planet but Jew haters aren’t really known for crossing their T’s and dotting their I’s when it comes to their own intelligence.

 

Clarification, please-- do you mean the leader of Hamas, or Netanyahu?

 

Netanyahu, but, since you mentioned it, both would also work well.

 

Wiped off the planet? Straw man, much?
Who the hell is talking about prohibiting Israel from defending itself, or even questioning its Right to prosecute a war against Hamas?

Or is it your interpretation of Israel's position, that it refuses to fight, unless it can simultaneously inflict collective punishment on all Gaza residents?

If you are equating anyone who complains about all the civilian deaths, tied to Israeli actions, with anti-Semitism, you are once again, dancing with straw men-- or at the very least, propagating a fake narrative, and a false equivalence.

Or is anything Israel does, automatically all right, in your eyes? Their leaders, really, are beyond criticism-- by nature, faultless?

 

No one foresaw Hamas conducting an air assault against the Out skirts of Israel. Israel would have had little trouble handling the usual Hamas style of attack. But the style of this attack caught them completely off guard. It would not work again just like 18 nuts with box cutters won't work again here.

 

While Bibi has been no friend of the peace process, and I would would be glad to see Israelis reject their self-proclaimed protector, it would be erroneous to assume that his replacement, would be an improvement-- at least, in regard to the Palestinian situation. The opposition leader, Benny Gantz, while portraying himself as a moderate, and opposing Netanyahu's judicial reforms, is seemingly of one mind with the current Prime Minister, on how to treat the residents of Gaza. In his last campaign, he had put a counter on the screen, over Palestinian funerals, with the numbers spinning ever higher-- as a boast! Or maybe, as a promise.

Here is another Gantz ad:





<Snip>
Both contenders for Israel’s premiership, Benjamin Netanyahu and Benny Gantz, are hoping to give the victory speech after today’s vote. Yet regardless of who – if any – emerges the winner, Israelis have already been presented with this election’s victory image: the humiliating poster featuring Palestinian leaders kneeling, blindfolded and defeated, against the backdrop of a destroyed city.

The campaign, advertised on billboards by the far-right group Israel Victory Project and quickly taken down by order of Tel Aviv’s mayor, is the epitome of Israel’s current phase of control over the Palestinians. Though they were in the public eye only for a short time, these billboards are already etched in the collective consciousness. After all, that is where the idea came from: the minds of a growing number of Jews in Israel who are publicly expressing their vision of absolute “victory” over the Palestinians — not only in the depths of their subconscious, but most openly and practically.

If one doubts this image represents the broad Jewish consensus in Israel, recall the message Gantz chose to launch his first election campaign: boasting about the 2014 death toll in a Gaza, and showing the destruction Israel rained there. Given the same iconography, the same collective consciousness, the same consensus, how different is the “extremist” billboard from the “moderate alternative?”
<End>

https://www.972mag.com/israel-victory-elections-palestinian-defeat/

 

So much anger directed at Jews in every post you write on this subject. So what exactly did Jews do to you? I’d love to know more about leftists who hate Jews

 

So much bullshit, in all your accusations. Can you quote my particular words, from which you read "so much anger directed at Jews?" FYI, objecting to an Israeli policy, or practice, is not an expression of anger at Jews (it is an expression of objection, to a particular practice or policy, of a national government).

 

Why would Hamas want to end it? Hamas is never going to get the Palestinians their land back. That only happens with Israel destroyed (or maybe weakened to a point of honest negotiation). And ever since we bribed most of the anti-Israeli world to be less violent about it with the Abraham Accords, all the official support to get the Palestinians their land back pretty much dried up. The only thing that got the bulk of the Arab world's govts back to their 'destroy Israel' ways was the mass shelling of civilians, and the only way Israel was going to go back to their 'shell civilians' ways was if they could justify it to all their western allies. So Hamas gave them their justification, and the Zionists let them in to do it.

The sad fact is there are Muslim extremists that want to destroy Israel and Zionist extremists that want to exterminate Palestinians, and they hate eachother SO VERY MUCH that they'll seemingly work together just enough to get the rest of the world to politically tolerate 'their big showdown.'

Its just too bad we can't move all the Zionists and Hamas supporters somewhere where they can dook it out away from peaceful folks. But that's how psychopaths tend to roll- kill everyone else before killing eachother.

 

So, the Israeli intelligence discovered the details somewhere in October 2021, maybe earlier. A few thoughts. Either the Israeli intelligence dismissed it because it was too hard to be true, which they have done in the past. Or this was an "October Surprise" by Netanayu and those who wanted to keep in him power despite his political "distractions" in which Netanyahu was being accused of which he eventually was ousted in June 2021. It is also possible that the Israeli Intelligence did not want to give the current PM, if we take the time of discovery literally, Yair Lipid, was not welcomed by the military and intelligence and they cannot say in public who they wanted to support. So, some serious questions need to be asked, starting with the Colonel who rebuffed the reports and so forth. But we will not see that from Netanyahu, at least not now until this war is over.

So, let's play hypothetical here. If Israel carried this out in October 2021, the moment the information was confirmed, what should Israel have done? The same results would have happened except there would have been no attack by Hamas. And Israel would have been worse off internationally with Hamas saying Israel is the aggressor. The info probably did not have the exact date or general date of when the attack would occur, and it could have been their version of an "op plan" similar to what Britain had in the 1920s that called for the invasion of the USA by British forces. So, I can see both sides to this, especially if Israel took action before any attack, and the world being suspicious of Israel with that intelligence being too convenient.

So, we need additional info and a government investigation of why the intelligence and military did not sound the alarm bells and dismissed the intel that was discovered. Only then shall we have a better picture of why the intelligence and military seemed to have failed. Also remember, US intelligence discovered evidence and warned Israel a few weeks or a few days prior to the attack, and they too did not heed our warnings, at least politically.

 

It will be easy for Intelligence to claim that the earlier iterations of this plan seemed too unrealistic, at the time; but that would not explain how they had not noticed from at least as far back as 2016, that Hamas had grown, adding thousands of more fighters, and much, more sophisticated equipment-- though, really, how advanced would it have to be, to break down a fence?-- in all the intervening years. That seems a huge Intelligence failure. This is not like the U.S., trying to keep tabs on terrorists, all around the world; this was more like keeping track of the ants, in one's ant farm.

Second failure, was not picking up on, and tracking, communications about this plan, which must have occurred-- despite Israel's having complete control of the internet, in Gaza.

But I can see occurring, the utter negligence and incompetence of both of those things, more easily than the decision to remove their own troops, from the border fence. I mean, if you are going to believe the argument that the IDF just did not consider Hamas any kind of threat, requiring troops at the border-- despite their "aspirational" plans, all the added fighters, and new equipment-- then why would they even think they needed a fence, anymore? So this is the dereliction of their duty that I find most incredible.

Lastly, that they could detect what some Intelligence analysts felt was a dress rehearsal for the start of a war, and the data received no further review, beyond the dismissal of one colonel, shows a glaring flaw in their structural design for reviewing Intelligence, and so coming to decisions about any action, based on that intelligence.

Either the culture of the Israeli military leadership had fallen into dangerously lax complacency, regarding the Hamas threat, or, because of a probable underestimating of Hamas capabilities, this plan was allowed to gestate and come to fruition. Of course, the first possibility is the more readily believable; but the latter possibility is far from outside the realm of possibility. People can justify to themselves, all sorts of things, when they believe in the righteousness of some course of action; or when wanting to save their own skin.

 

That seemed like what you were saying, I just wanted to confirm that was your claim.

 

You should change the title of your thread to "New York Times Becomes anti-Zionists' New Gospel". The terror supporting rag that employs Soliman Hijjy of "How great you are, Hitler" fame is anti-Zionists' chosen source nowadays, together with far left Haaretz and 972 Magazine, and of course Hamas' mouthpieces Middle East Eye and Al Jazeera.

Anti-Israel propaganda borrowed much from Russian methods, including building a wall of lies around a small speck of truth. The truth is that everybody in Israel knew for decades that Hamas wants exactly what it did on October 7th, because they always explicitly say so. The rest...I don't know. I don't trust the New York Times.

 

Looks like we have PF posters assuring us this is all the Joos fault.

Hamas Branded Children, Beat Jews With Electric Cables, and Kept Israeli Women in Cages

'Many hostages are not talking much out of fear for those who continue to be held by the evil ones. Others are too traumatized to tell their stories. Their lives will never be the same. The worst are the stories of the children, the youngest victims of Hamas.'

'Children were hot branded in case they escaped, according to Yaniv Yaakov, the uncle of the brothers Or, 16, and Yagil, 12, who were freed on Nov. 27.'

'The kidnapped Israeli children were branded with a burn on their legs, so if any of them succeeded in getting away, every one of the "innocent civilian bystanders" in Gaza would know that to they are Hamas property and to return them immediately.'



'A Thai hostage who was released said that Jewish captives were beaten with electric cables. He said Israeli hostages are treated worse than other hostages.'

'-UN: teacher held (at least) one hostage.
- Red Cross: knew about Hamas use of hospitals and tried to keep Israel away.
- Major Media: used stringers who *literally* rode into battle with Hamas brandishing weapons.'

https://hotair.com/karen-townsend/2...ables-and-kept-israeli-women-in-cages-n595963

 

You obviously know nothing at all about the Israeli society. The government doesn't have to sell tough responses to Hamas to the Israeli public. It's the Israeli public that angrily demands tough responses to Hamas for decades.

Keep your conspiracy theories for societies you're familiar with, not places you don't know anything about halfway across the world.

 

NPR Poll Tells Us What We Already Know



'the modern home of antisemitism is the Democrat Party. That’s not to say that being a Democrat makes you an anti-Semite. Hardly. 7 in 10 Jews are Democrats, and many non-Jewish Democrats are anything but anti-Semites.'

'But let’s face facts: the home of anti-Semites in America is the Democrat Party. While 80% of Republicans and nearly 70% of Independents support Israel, only 45% of Democrats do.'

'Americans' sympathies overall lie with Israel in this conflict, but Democrats are split By a 61%-30% margin, respondents said their sympathies lie more with Israelis than Palestinians, but that's driven by Republicans (79%) and independents (67%), who overwhelmingly support Israel. Democrats are split, 45%-45%.'

'The difference is clear: as the young Turks of the Democrat Party move up the political ladder, the Democrat Party is becoming more and more hostile to Jews.'

This is the indoctrination in schools.

'When Ilhan Omar was making her rise to prominence in MN, she ran against a long-time incumbent progressive State Rep who was Jewish, and her message to her fellow Somalis was, “Don’t vote for the old Jewish lady.”'

'younger Democrats are anti-Semitic. They see Jews as White oppressors, settler colonialists, and, ultimately, enemies. No amount of ideological convergence matters in an environment that puts identity over ideology, and Leftist Jews are finding themselves frozen out by people they have supported their entire political lives.'

Leftists 'have supported identity politics because they automatically embrace anybody they consider “powerless,” and they define powerless by race, gender, sexual orientation, and any other “identity” they see as oppressed.'

So the Jewish women who were gangraped until their pelvises shattered, and then murdered, are 'the oppressors" and the Gazans who continued to rape them even after they were dead are their 'victims'.

As you read Leftists posting in this manner keep in mind that these folks hold a very narrow extreme view, disagreed with 2/1 by the American People.

 

Another shining example of how anti-Zionists distort facts for propagada purposes.

The counter in the 2019 Gantz ad (I hope you didn't believe that Israel has elections now in the middle of the war...) didn't count Palestinian victims. The images were from funerals of Hamas members (you know, those who never die because all the victims in Gaza are civilians...), and the counter showed the number of Hamas terrorists stil alive.

By all means, continue using trash sources. I enjoy debunking them.