So does this mean you now understand how Occam's Razor applies to 9/11 and how the huge difference in assumptions make the conspiracy theories stand out as complete bunk?
Hmm. Well all I can say is trust . . . but verify. You'll be surprised what you can learn that way. On another note related to Truther Heaven . . . Seems that poor Phil is looking for some free legal help to go after someone who is sullying his "good name". http://letsrollforums.com/legal-help-assistance-requested-t28376.html?t=28376 Rather ironic for someone who has spent so much time crapping on the repuation 9/11 victims, families, and firefighters to be whining about someone doing the same to him.
Thank you for enlightening me to my error, in the way I held the razor, that is, that simpler explanations were preferred to complex ones. Now I know that the razor is intended to slice ideas that are filled with assumptions, to find the probable answer. I ask though, are there more assumptions for the al Qaeda equation?
How is intelligence failure an assumption? Do you have evidence that it wasn't intelligence failure and that we knew when the attacks would be, what form the attacks would take and who, specifically, was going to carry out the attacks?
Jayhan says: "Legal Help & Assistance Requested Against Harassment I am looking for people who are attorney's in Pennsylvania and New Jersey to deal with some legal needs of the forum. I am looking for pro bono legal work to initiate a lawsuit against Scambook and those who started this campaign of lies about me on Scambook. http://www.scambook.com/report/view/107567/letsrollforumscom-owner-Phil-Jayhan-is-a-NUT-JOB-wacko-tin-foil-hat-Complaint-107567-for-$267.34 http://complaintwire.org/complaint/Q...-nut-job-wacko Since Philip Degenova sent me messages on facebook, drawing my attention to it, I have always assumed it was him who began this campaign. The very idea of him drawing my attention to this right after it went up, tells me it was more then likely Philip Degenova. I have also made official complaints about this and other illegal behavior shown against me by Philip Degenova. I also made a sworn complaint to the McHenry County police, seeking a restraining order or some kind of relief from the law. This can be obtained by calling the McHenry county police department and using the name Phil Degenova and Phillip Jayhan. It is a public record. But then Brian Staveley came here using sock puppets, throwing that link out all over as well, so perhaps it was Staveley. Whoever it was had an IP address when the message was left on scambook, and that IP address can be traced back to determine which of them it was who started this. I know it was one of them, or possibly both,. When calling around looking for local legal assistance on this a few months ago, every lawyer I spoke with told me I had an easy to win case, but they weren't willing to take the case on speculation of what they might make. In other words, since they had no idea of assets, they weren't willing to do legal help, especially with an out of state case. So if your an attorney and would like to step in and help with this matter, and offer your legal services, I would really appreciate it. Here are some messages Philip Degenova sent to me from a sock puppet facebook account to draw my attention to his slander on scambook. That is a picture of Philip Degenova. So, if any of you can help, I would seriously appreciate it. I would like to sue scambook, and those who made this lying campaign. Because of the date this was made on scambook, and the date smelliot dice, a philip degenova sock puppet sent me a message drawing my attention to it was 1 day difference. And they used Philip Degenovas picture. No coincidence. And court orders for IP's would settle this very quickly. Which is why he took down his sock puppet facebook account so suickly. Thanks, Phil" "I received this via a PM here and would much rather deal with this in public view then privately, also forcing me to possibly answer the same questions and issues over and over again. A little while after we discovered the hollow towers and started publishing the material, Philip Degenova showed under the screen name Vanity Fair. He was a troublemaker from the beginning, always causing hatre4d and strife breakouts wherever he went on the forum. When someone here discovered his real identity through clues he was leaving on the forums, he wasn't pleased. He sent me an email demanding his real name be removed and when I told him to (*)(*)(*)(*) off, countered by criminally extorting me. I have made multiple official reports with the FBI regarding what I am about to share here once again. And have also made official complaints against Philip Degenova with the McHenry County Police here in Illinois seeking a restraining order and his arrest. You can obtain these reports by contacting either agency, the FBI here in Chicago or the McHenry County police Department stationed in Woodstock, Illinois. They should be public record. Philip Degenova wrote me an email and promised in no uncertain terms that he would smear me as a pedophile all across the internet unless he got what he wanted, his name removed from my forum. You might be wondering where did this delightful little puke, Philip Degenova, came from? Well, because I once thought that Jim Fetzer was an honest person and seeking the truth of 9/11 rather then covering it up, I signed into his email group trying to share what we had found. When complaining about Philip Degenova to Jim Fetzer and wondering why he is allowed to so bully and criminally extort people in his email group, found that Jim Fetzer was far more interested in protecting this criminal then in granting me any relief from this man, who could have been easily banned by Fetzer. Instead, I was demonized by Jim Fetzer as the troublemaker. Weird, hunh? Understandably, I have not tried to contact Fetzer at all since this happened. It became fairly obvious to me that there was a relationship between Jim Fetzer and Philip Degenova which Fetzer wasn't willing to sever or harm. Jim Fetzers relationship with this criminal, Philip Degenova, was more important to Fetzer then the truth of the hollow towers which we had discovered. I think it shows Jim Fetzers colors and what he is all about more then any other information. Fetzer can't criminally extort people. It might look bad to his name and reputation. He especially cannot criminally extort the people who discovered the final truths of 911 and figured out how the entire day was a total hoax. So what does Fetzer do? He relies on somebody else, who doesn't have these same constraints. Philip Degenova. This is why Jim Fetzer was unwilling to ban Philip Degenova or (*)(*)(*)(*) him off and also why Jim Fetzer couldn't care less if he pissed of or alienated the very people who figured out 9/11 and the Hollow Towers. The problem, for them is this; They broke the law repeatedly, flagrantly and openly, without too much shame at all. This can be prosecuted, but it will take a dedicated attorney and lawyer. Even though I named the exact statutes which were broken, in each state respectively, the FBI and McHenry county police were either unwilling or unable to prosecute the criminal, Philip Degenova, and bring justice. Philip Degenova, to this day still openly mocks me and breaks the law, and will not be punished or prosecuted apart from a civil lawsuit and a criminal complaint, pushed through by an attorney, hopefully found here. I am hoping someone of you out there will help me out with this, and step in and provide legal assistance, so justice can happen with Philip Degenova, he can be punished and we can get back to our work of research and discovery. I happen to know for a fact that Philip Degenova has substantial assets and stock portfolios, so anyone who donates their services would eventually find a rich reward, as there are many things in Philip Degenovas life which can be liened and frozen while the courts impose final settlements. How do I know? Philip Degenova told me so before everything went South. Because is is stupid and haughty and thinks I am stupid as well. Here is what I want; Attorneys willing to open civil and criminal litigation against Philip Degenova. And Brian Staveley if warranted. Pro Bono. I would honestly like some serious support from membership here. If you guys don't protect those who are persecuted for bringing forth the truth, by the shills, then there isn't any use in continuing this website or a search for the truth. A post like this should find all sorts of support and supporters, yet I fully expect it to drop down without any responses. Prove me wrong and show me you guys protect those who declare truth and go after with a venom those who try to suppress those who do; e.g. Philip Degenova, Brian Staveley, Simon Shack, Justin Cooke. What these people are doing is criminal. And should be punished. They are trying to destroy the truth and all of our research. cheers- phil" That last line almost had me gasping for breath I was laughing so hard. Jokes aside, this doesn't quite hang together: "You might be wondering where did this delightful little puke, Philip Degenova, came from? Well, because I once thought that Jim Fetzer was an honest person and seeking the truth of 9/11 rather then covering it up, I signed into his email group trying to share what we had found." I've heard rumors about these email lists that are preaching to the choir cult rah rah clubs. 99% of list drama is for the benefit of controlling marks. Whenever a "truther" brings up this Fetzer guy and calls him the devil, etc, my bs detector goes off. It's like a script everyone is using to distance themselves from the clown even though Google searches show he's been involved with the same people for years. On other hand judge the complaint for yourself: http://www.scambook.com/report/view/107567/letsrollforumscom-owner-Phil-Jayhan-is-a-NUT-JOB-wacko-tin-foil-hat-Complaint-107567-for-$267.34
Well, since al Qaeda won, our intelligence lost. Hence, intelligence failure is an assumption under the al Qaeda paradigm.
No, intelligence failure is not an assumption because after the attacks, further investigation uncovered exactly where and how intelligence failures took place.
Exactly. Intelligence failure isn't assumed, but known. Hindsight is 20/20. Looking back it is easy to see where we could have foiled the plot, but from their point of view at the time there was nothing to clue them in on the hijackers. Did you have a chance to go over all the assumptions the truther theories require?
I think it's the "intentional" failures that folks are having a problem with. Hindsight IS 20/20 and the obvious is well......obvious.
Okay, you wont budge on intelligence failure, even though the IC received a warning that al Qaeda was going to fly planes full of explosives into the WTC in May/June '98. Osama bin Laden declared War on America several times. al Qaeda had attacked us and US interests already. Why wasn't the enemy that was verbally and physically waging War not taken care of? What kind of assumption is this? Furthermore, to all involved, are you objectively looking at this? I mean, to find more assumptions for the al Qaeda equation. Regarding the assumptions to the conspiracy theorists POV...there are a lot more of them that you could add in, which I think I could axe without trouble, but the things you specifically typed out... is not a stretch of the imagination. They are well within operational capabilities for trained US conductors to perform.
Over at LR, before I was banned, I posted in a thread about the column that came out of the WTC. Would someone mind posting those two pica for me?
Was that the only warning they received? Did they also find out who the hijackers were? Did they find out when the attack was scheduled for? Did they find out ANY specifics that would allow them to act? The answer to those questions are all emphatic nos, yet you think it was actionable information. Yet another completely dishones So you think we should have invaded a foreign country over this? You, the one whining about every foreign policy of the US? Don't you find that rather hypocritical, especially since you think it was the government or the Israelis behind 9/11? You have yet to point out an assumption that had to be made. You're fishing for assumptions and failing miserably while completely ignoring the true assumptions truther theories have to make. You haven't been able to axe a single one so far, and once again you've completely missed the point. The point isn't that the assumptions aren't feasible, it is that you have to make assumption after assumption in order for the theories to work whereas you don't have to do that for the official theory.
I have to disagree with this. Maybe little was known about these specific hijackers, but their methodology was suspected for some time. The Chicago Sun-Times reported: "The FBI had advance indications of plans to hijack U.S. airliners and use them as weapons, but neither acted on them nor distributed the intelligence to local police agencies. From the moment of the September 11 attacks, high-ranking federal officials insisted that the terrorists method of operation surprised them. Many stick to that story. Actually, elements of the hijacking plan were known to the FBI as early as 1995 and, if coupled with current information, might have uncovered the plot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theories#cite_note-1 And a report in 1999 warned of a suicide hijacking: "The report, entitled the "Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism: Who Becomes a Terrorist and Why?," described the suicide hijacking as one of several possible retribution attacks al Qaeda might seek for the 1998 U.S. airstrike against bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/17/attack/main509471.shtml But the truth movement muddles the facts by labeling government incompetence as "INSIDE JOB", and then trying to leverage that into proof of a universe spanning NWO plot by the Jews. Or...and I expect this is about to happen to me lol...because I can point to and source government incompetence, try to argue that means they're right about every other bat shhte insane "theory". Waiting.....
I think you're being a bit disingenuous. This thread is titled "truther heaven" for a reason: it is calling attention to the bat shhte insane forum LetsTroll that pushes the absurd and delusional theories like "smoke machines" and fake victims, yet was lauded as a respectable place by some "truther" board members. Now you're trying to move goal posts with a somewhat convoluted change in argument tactics, using more or less well sourced material to "prove" Let's Troll still has some value? Huh? We KNOW about the well sourced material and what it means and what it doesn't mean. That wasn't the point. The point was "truthers" plugging LetsRoll as if it's "truther heaven". So what point are the trying to make now that has any relevance to Jayhan's forum?
HAHAHA seriously? stop.. we both know it was not a fluke terror attack carried out by shadowy muslims.."well possibly carried out, but NOT masterminded" you will not get any debunker to budge.. there will never be a "you know what that is weird" moment...just more word and debate manipulations.. muddy the arguement and have you spinning your wheels... ever notice that EVERY debunker acts as if it is their DUTY to disprove any theories you bring up? i mean its like clockwork.. they will never touch upon any other subject but 9/11... im not an educated man...but even i can see that this is not a debate from 2 different sides.. one side points out the THOUSANDS of weird coincidences.. and the other side does not look at what was presented in terms of possible conspiracy.. instead they look at it in terms of..."ok how do i counter this"... stop wasting ANY time debating forum debunkers.. you will never "change their minds" notice they are left NOR right... notice they have no opinion OTHER then defend the government from all conspiracy theories... go into the real world.. most everyone you come in contact with does not believe the 19 muslim fair tail... look at where we are today... non of this would be possible without 9/11.... NOTHING... 19 cave dwelling musims masterminded by a bush family friend from a cave, barely clinging to life in 1998?
I agree that the methodology was known, but it was one methodology amongst many possible methodologies Al Qaeda could have tried. You have many as yet untried attacks we have information terrorists have considered such as attacks against nuclear power plants, water supplies, dirty bombs, anthrax etc. My point wasn't that the means wasn't known, but that the means was just one possibility out of numerous possibilities. It just so happened that Al Qaeda picked suicide planes. Trying to pick the real attack out of the clutter of possible attack methodologies is not an easy task. In 1994, Tom Clancy wrote a book called Debt of Honor in which a hijacked plane is flown into the Capitol building. In 1996 there was a movie made with a similar plot called Executive Decision. It was about a plane hijacking with a nerve agent "bomb" on board where they planned on crashing the plane to release the nerve agent. So yeah. There is no question everyone knew that hijacked planes could be used as weapons.
It is all GT is capable of. He is just like 911 inside job. He is a truther cheerleader only. Not worth even bothering with.
Somewhat ironic for someone who chose the screen name "group think", itself an obvious attempt at irony.
i also love how "debunkers" always seem to be able to operate outside of forum rules.. say the wrong thing when youre not a resident debunker you get banned.. its almost the same in EVERY political forum..
