Ukraine removes all 1320 statues of Lenin.

I am speaking about leaders of Communist Party through whole USSR history. Majority - not all. But majority.

And since you do not like so much when people are driven from their homes to make land "vacant" - how would you call then actions of this army of ukrainian volunteer irregulars who drove over 3 million people from their homes and sent thousands to graves? A "liberation" of settlable dirt, I assume? "liberation" of coal mines and industrial factories? A "liberation" of land that can be sold, after all? And how can we forget "liberation" of one of Poroshenko's business competitors of his assets in Donbass that got seized by rebels after volunteers created blockade of coal supply to Ukraine this spring.

 

You are probably correct that some individuals who fought for the Confederacy did so for the reasons you stated but those were not the reasons that propelled the South to secede from the Union.

Look at it in terms of the average German who fought in the Wehrmacht or German Navy during WWII. Did very Johanne or Wolf fight because he believed that Jews were sub human and needed to be destroyed? Did they fight because they all believed that Germans were the master race and they needed to kill of all of the SLAVIC peoples so Germans can colonize their lands and expand Germany to the Urals? Probably not! Yet they did fight for Germany, for Nazi Germany, the same Nazi Germany that wanted to kill off other peoples and replace them with GERMANS. DID SOME Germans fight for their country and not for Nazism at least that is what they thought ? Sure. So does that mean that the statues of Nazi heroes should be allowed to exist in GERMANY? Should young Germans be allowed to do the Nazi salute just as their Grandparents did?

Should Germans honor the Nazis as a historic reality of their culture ?

 

Just look in the history books; you don't need statues to be educated on the past.

 

What BS FAKE NEWS from the bowells of the Kremlin you spout. There were not 3 millions people driven from their homes or coal mines. There wee people displaced by war and there were many real good people Ukrainians who had to leave their homes in the east because Traitors and Russian so called volunteers and Chechens came into Eastern Ukraine to commit muder and perform ethnic cleansing.

 

Germans can decide for themselves, but I would've said they deserve some credit for at least when warfare raged on their own land and they fought for their own homes and families, and that they deserve pity for having government not worthy of it's position and had to pay for decidions of people who governed them. They deserved better than NSDAP.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass

*Over 2,5 millions. Still thousands dead.

That is if "ukrainians" there is used as term of citizenship and not ethnic. And in case you think that ethnic russians would have it better there - do you really think that ANYBODY would live in these conditions? With constant risk of having their life, or life of their children ended by a random shell hitting their home?




And do not tell me you missed the coal blockade.
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/coal-blockade-in-ukraine-new-demands.499505/

https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/blockade-vows-stop-russian-coal-imports.html - is that a "fake kremlin news"?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39139633 - is THAT a "fake kremlin news"?

Maybe is that a "fake kremlin news"? How Poroshenko condemned the blockade..?
http://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-39283532 - or maybe THIS is "fake news", of how Poroshenko started supporting this blockade and using it as political tool?
https://www.ft.com/content/276f3fd8-098c-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43 - this maybe?

https://tsn.ua/blogi/themes/politic...-blokada-z-politichnim-pidtekstom-880485.html - this is "fake kremlin news", maybe, about how this blockade effectively destroyed property of this oligarch Akhmetov and his D TEK corporation?

 

Sorry but I will not equate nazi germany with the Confederacy

There is no comparison whatsoever

 

You can say that about any statue or any other historical item that is not a book.

A statue is an actual surviving part of the history, rather than merely a description of it.

If it was built 100 years after the event, it still demonstrates how people 100 years after the event viewed the history.

I would definitely have misgivings about a new statue being erected for General Lee without at least acknowledging in some way a severe disapproval of the racism he represented. And that would demonstrate how we, in 2017, feel about the history. So in 2117, people would see it as an historic artifact about our time as well as General Lee's.

 

Lee does not represent racism except in your own mind

The leftwing anarchists are going crazy attacking Colubus and recently a statue of a soldier who served in the Revolutionary War

This is liberal insanity

 

Not comparing NAZI Germany to the CONFERDERACY ! The reasons that the average schlep fought are the same. Johnny Smith of Mecklenburg NC fought for what he thought was for love of his country just as Johanne Schmidt of MECKLENBURG Germany fought for the love of his country. You and other posters here claim that the Southern soldier fought for the love of "his" country!

 

Its too bad that you have such a low opinion of the common soldier, even Confederates,

To me love of country is a good reason to fight

And an honorable one

Do you have Germans as much as you hate Southern whites?

 

On either side, the crimes of one's own side must not be ignored or even denied, or only declared as harmless ones!

The fact is that the complete ideology of the Nazis in themselves and how they were ultimately carried out was solely directed at the destruction and enslavement of people who were only "sub-humen" for them!
The crimes thus made are simply unbelievable and unique in their complexity ... even if they were always true of events later on, and certainly also partly in detail, no one had ever been so involved in the complexity and the kind of industrial destruction again!

Has the Red Army violently committed war crimes? Yes, she has ... even if some deny or even talk ... and others attack me with security as a German because of how can I as a German allow me to say something like that, etc.!

The point is, however, that these crimes are not to be excused, but on the other hand they are somehow understandable when looking at the circumstances.
As I said, the Germans in the USSR have committed tremendous crimes and destroyed everything on the retreat. So if the Red Army soldier and Ivan Ivanovich from the village of X in Belarus 1944 happened by chance to announce that the whole village was destroyed by the Germans, and that all the inhabitants were shot for alleged partisan action, he was certainly not pleased On revenge. And so it was with the whole Red Army, when they had to fixate themselves during the reconquest, that everything was flattened and millions of dead and countless other Germans crimes took place!
Surprisingly, however, the majority of the crimes committed by the Red Army were not committed by the combat groups, but by the rear units that followed them.

 

It is so. Mainly for political reasons. For example, in every country basically have been forming auxilary forces for Wermacht and SS. For example some literal veterans of the Civil War have been enlisting in russian regiments of Germany's army, probably seeking exact same kind of revenge. Armies assaulted and retreated, all foraged from villages, all sorts of rogues and bandits have been travelling over the country during civil war - plenty of people been lost, dead or traumatised. For all sides in it. So it is not hard to understand motivations behind those who were going to "liberate" Russia under the invaders banner. Same with pretty much every region of the Union - after the civil war, after the famines, collectivisation, political chages and enforced Stalin's cult of personality there have been plenty of people willfull to fight against Union's government. There is not that much wrong with that - it was first half of XX century. The mass media was not so wide spread, and in Russia infrastructure was... Well, it actually never was good and even still isn't good. So people were in many cases literally not capable of knowing what kind of people were germans who at first stages of war practically tried swaying people to support them. It was obvious and logical move, because without people's support.. They got what they got - strong partizani movement and uprisings everywhere.

Uprisings that in some places were aimed to overthrow both german and soviet governance, which... Was not a thing Stalin was able to tolerate. Uprisings against soviet rule were not only against his interests, they also were threatening to sabotage supply lines of soviet army in the west, which would've lead to a military catastrophy. Hence the NKVD was ordered to do what it was ordered to do. In many cases - pure, refined criminal acts. In many cases. In some cases - people saw that as lesser evil. You can imagine what it takes to see NKVD hanging rebels who wanted to live without german or soviet rule, as a lesser evil. Uprisings had their heroes. Uprisings had their own butchers. And own massacres.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia#Volhynia

So in this war were no saints. Best we can do - is to recognise the misdeeds and understand that they were misdeeds. And that nearly not a single person strived for suffering and destruction. The NKVD, for example, still majority of time was doing functions of counter-intelligence and war police. Seeking spies, catching deserters, dealing with rogues - including pretty much basic bandits who for nothing but gain pillaged villages and city blocks, marauding the empty homes and apartments or even attacked supply lines with weapons they salvaged from after battles or real soldiers. Even without the horrific massacres the things people had to do during this war rarely were pretty. And people who had to go through all that shιte, all that seemingly endless cicle of dirt, blood and tears and dirt and blood and more tears deserve pity. These people's world have been shattered by a six years of nearly constant violence, when basically nearly non of them wanted anything but a normal, decent life - with safety of their families, belief in better tomorrow, and a life that is being lived and not survived. They deserve pity, and back then - they deserved better than what they got.

 

That is interesting that you mentioned partisans during WWII. Half of my family lived right on the border between Ukraine and Belarus with half in Ukraine nand half in Belarus. Many members of that part of the family were either directly part of the Ukrainian Partisan Army or supported the partisans. Both of my grandfathers were sent to asiberua tge one near Belarus was arrested by the NKVD Russian scum Turds and sent to Siberia with the charge that he gave food to the Ukrainian Partisans. That he did. I have to puke when I read, hear, or see TV shows praising the Soviet "partizans" in that area. The Soviet partisan doesn't 90 % of their time and resources fighting Ukrainian Partisans and not fighting the Germans. Both of my parents were sent to Forced Labor camps by the Nazis so my family was the victims of both Communist Russian Scum and Nazis. As far as I am concerned the Russian Communist Scum were no better than the Nazis.

 

Look,
personally my family was fighting the Nazis at least and their enemies. Grandfather A was normal Corporal in Wehrmacht and made a joke about Hitler what wasn't rated by his commander as funny and so he was until end of war in a penalty battalion and survived only with luck. Isn't funny when you are not armed and should search in daylight for enemy mines with a bayonetted in no mans land when Red Army positions is only 500 feet away and your live is on mercy of the Russian Machine Gunner if he wants to kill you or not. Because he made this joke, not only he got penalty! His older brother was at this time Lieutenant and got degradation to be a private too and died later in Winter 1943 near Leningrad / St. Petersburg.
Grandfather B was active Anti-Nazi and member of Social democrats and fled in 1934 to France, because being searched by the Nazis as enemy. He entered French Foreign Legion and fought later in North Africa together with the Brits against Rommel and after this in Italy until end of war. Because after French defeat in 1940 the Nazis had somehow access to the depending French files they found it out, his sister and brother and later his mother went to concentration camp Bergen-Belsen!

My wife - we are since 14 years married - is Polish and her family suffered from both, Nazis and USSR! Grandfather A died in war in 1939. The father of her Grandmother could flee in 1939 and fought in the West together with the Brits in the Free Polish Army. Because he did this and because the family lived in the area which was occupied by the Red Army in 1939 and again in 1944/45 and the mother of her Grandma was a teacher, the complete family was deported to Siberia as penalty by the NKWD for 10 years for forced labor. The Grandma of my wife was age 11 at this time and in Siberia her 2 little brothers who were deported too, died!

So I think I can have a clear and somehow neutral view on both sides about their crimes and also the good things ...

 

We should build a statue depicting liberal insanity
Any ideas?

 

How about a statue of Robert Lee at ESPN?