Warning to the west & EU; Isolate or die.

I should of titled this thread ‘To my beloved USA citizen; Get used to a lower standard of living or demand isolation policies be implemented post haste!!!!‘. BTW, Anyone that wants to skip the bulk and comments can skip to the last sentence.

The rise of the east that is china and the pacific rim is a danger to the dominance of the west, primarily the USA. The strengths of the eastern world are patience and the use of that patience by implementing long term goals. The west on the other hand is interested in short term gratification, which in the face of equal or superior economic competition is a recipe for becoming a second rate service/agricultural orientated power or worse. We in the west have enjoyed no real competition to our industrial dominance for a hundred years, that has radically changed.

I see China surpassing the USA and the EU (which I rarely include as a western power for brevity and clarity) in less than a hundred years. I have written several threads championing the benefits of Isolating the west and perhaps the EU, so will not repeat them here. I wonder what the members would suggest that the west or their own country do to compete with China and the east?

reva

 

I think you give China way too much credit. They manipulate their numbers like no other. They are facing a real estate crisis, inflation, and residential unrest that is forthcoming. I actually foresee them as being a potential catalyst for massive global decline. They bolstered many through the 2008-09 crisis, but that won't happen again. They bought a lot of resources during that time and put a ton of money into their own economy (hence inflation, yes Revier, printing money does eventually lead to that) Currency crises are on their way. When the dollar reserve goes down, it won't be good for any country.

Again, for those that don't know, the Fed Reserve actually owns the most debt of the US, and when they can't get rid of it, we are done (i.e. treasuries won't be bought by anybody when the US currency reserve goes down)

 

probably quicker than that. and its too late for isolation.

but don't worry. China isn't the biggest threat we face in the next hundred years.

its ignorance.

 

Good post. I hope you are correct, well I would like to see everyone (nation) succeed because now we are all pathetically interconnected, thus exposed. China has bought into the idea of market capitalism and has inherited the bad with the good as you pointed out. It will be an interesting experiment, communism/socialism/capitalism.

However if the world goes deeper into recession who is going to buy her goods? I wonder if there is any evidence or theories that massive national debt and the inability of a nation to pay off the loans has caused war in recent times? (say a hundred years or so). I think the USA would go down swinging instead of just fading away like the honorable USSR did. In the early 70's we did forfeit on our debt to the world by printing funny money after Nixon quickly severed the last of the Gold backed currency days and printed and printed and printed. Nam was expensive. As is Iraq Afghanistan and ....

reva

 

I dont think it's too late. It may in fact be too soon! We in the west have it too good to want change. That said if a very short term solution were desirable, the USA ie the United West may have to incorporate using military force instead of voluntary cooperation! Nevertheless, as new infrastructure and public works projects were implemented, and as the system began functioning as an integrated horn of plenty, I think when other nations watched our citizens becoming filthy rich, living in a nation that puts Science R&D, energy independence and a good standard of living first, no tanks would be needed to convince them to join, eh?

As far as ignorance goes being a deterrent, yes you are correct. However, so far we in the west are the least ignorant and successful enough so as not to want change just yet. When I can take bogie for an afternoon walk in the most poverty stricken area of the country (Appalachia) and smell steaks grilling and see new cars etc, its going to have to get much worse before there is mass unrest in the streets~

Reva

 

I don't care about what you think is a great way to live. that probably won't change when China becomes the dominant power.

all this posturung really shyts me.

like the US and the USSR, and various colonial powers before them, China's main relationship with other nations will be for what they can get out of them.

China is changing, just as we all are. It is not the bogeyman state.

If you seppos are intent on starting a war with China, I think we should withdraw from ANZUS now.

I work with Chinese citizens regularly, and they seem to be a lot more aware of global issues than people on this forum, so I would dispute that you are the least ignorant.

 

I didn't say that ms hostile. I said that people here in the USA are too happy to want change, unlike in some areas of Europe etc where protesters are burning the cities.

Ignorance does that. There is a difference between posturing and posting an opinion. Or read as; What you call posturing I call relating an opinion.

Yes that is called security. I do not disagree. However there are differences. China as most eastern nations focus on long term goals, IMO that is an advantage. We can learn from the Chinese.

Oh I wouldn't say that. No one knows what the other man or nation is thinking, that certainly includes you. You have no crystal ball and very little prowess when it comes to geopolitical affairs judging by your prior posts. You seem to be bouncing back and forth like a hysterical woman. The point I was making is that China should be observed and recognized as a threat. The world is a big chess or poker game, ever government plays that game, we should simply be diligent rather than naive.

Who said anything about starting a war? And I have reported you for calling name calling seppo.

septic tank, rhyming slang for yank, an american person
would of been a good palace if it wasn't full of seppo wankers

You have a right to your opinion, luckily, for you you do have that to cling to, well and a bit of paranoia of Americans. You should thank the USA for our supporting the the island you live on, and providing material and later warm bodies to your country as well as your English cousins. Without us your countrymen may be learning the finer points of goosestepping....

reva

 

when you start talking about the military, its just dick waving and posturing, and it destabilises the region.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28357

we certainly can learn from them. I see evidence of that every day. but that doesn't mean we can't teach them a few things as well.

its you who engages in this dick waving and posturing, while having absolutely NO knowledge of the region, the people or the realities of the AsiaPac region. China is not a threat. it is american posturing that threatens the stability of this region.

your understanding of geopolitics is what I expect from poorly schooled americans.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2017055/How-US-students-use-map.html

and your lack of knowledge of the wider world is amply demonstrated in the above paragraph

 

Seppo is a Aussie term of endearment. The emphasis is on the rhyme, not the contents, honest!

 

Well in some uses by some people the n word is a term of endearment. Given my and Cass's history she was not complimenting me.

2. seppo 332 up, 149 down

septic tank, rhyming slang for yank, an american person
would of been a good palace if it wasn't full of seppo wankers
buy seppo mugs & shirts
by anonymous Dec 9, 2002 share this add a video
3. seppo 401 up, 188 down

Slang for Americans - as septic tank rhymes with yank, but Americans are also full of (*)(*)(*)(*) like septic tanks

reva

 

The only thing septic about the West is the god (*)(*)(*)(*) socialist democracy spreading throughout our societies that is crippling our economies, forcing our citizens into dependence on everything but themselves and shredding our moral and social fabrics into nothing.

 

Military power is the ultimate shape master of the world. If YOU dont know that, well its simply not fathomable anyone could be so intellectually lost, but nevertheless expected.

Where did I say otherwise? In fact we have taught them a heck of a lot! Who do you think they modeled their foray into market capitalism from?

China and its history was required study for little ole me for over a year of semesters, BTW, that would be two semesters. So how instead out of ignorance can you make such empty claims. If you are to have any credibility you should post what I said that gives you such authority to make such statements then debate your mind. However when you make empty headed claims and accusations you only make yourself seem ignorant.

Again plenty of rhetoric no proof. I was speaking of economic power when I quoted the pac rim. Again use quote tags NEVER assume anything (you assume nearly everything) ask what I think instead of telling me what I think, and if you make your usual patently ridiculous claims post some back up.

Yes, however, again you are in error as per usual. You make your typical vague sweeping claims along with insult (which alone demonstrate inferiority complex). Posting UK links that speak of students has nothing to do with me. I could easily post similar links bemoaning stupid Englishmen and UK citizens however it would mean nothing on a individual level.

Specifically how is my lack of the world that I have (modestly) traveled (probably while you were still pooping yellow) demonstrated in the paragraph you cite? Please for once attempt to really back up your comments even if they are asinine & crude ?

reva

 

Talk to Cass she is the lovely member that called I and you a Seppo, ie;

Cass said; "China is changing, just as we all are. It is not the bogeyman state.
If you seppos are intent on starting a war with China, I think we should withdraw from ANZUS now.

reva

ps; The seppo remark was coined because some British/UK people are still angry we kicked their butt thoroughly, back to the the kings lap.

 

lols, based on what you have revealed about yourself, it is you who is the child.

for a better world, we need to move away from this dick waving that boys like you are so enamoured of.

it might be ok when you invade weak countries that are no competition, but if you start trying to bully the bigger kids on the block, you won't find it so easy.

in all honesty, we need to get out of anzus. you've dragged us into too many wars, and nobody in this region wants a conflict with China.

 

I have been called worse, however again you make vague claims with nothing to go on (better to slander indiscriminately eh?). If you could produce some proof maybe I could rebut exactly what you say, maybe not, however for now I will say you are simply looking to argue not debate, because most of the things you accuse me of are on the personal level.

Again you attempt to say what you think I think instead of asking me. Show one quote of mine where I say I prefer war over peace? You can't. The reason being is that you WANT to believe those things, which make you at the very least slanderer and a troll.

I personally do not invade anyone. However if its a last resort personally I would fight a circular saw rather than run. Lastly if war is the last choice or even if there is a good chance that the other side poses a serious threat I would support a preemptive strike. Lastly if you actually read my posts instead hated for hates sake you would find that I disagree with most war.

Again you might want to look at what I said rather than what you think I said, what part of Isolationist dont you understand? You are really making yourself look silly Cass. Debate the issues and be specific.

reva

 

The whole idea of China vs. the U.S. is silly. China's ascendance isn't at the expense of the U.S. If anything, an economically powerful (and hopefully soon Democratic) China will be a great boost for the U.S. economy. China has more than a billion plus potential consumers whose incomes are increasing every year. The U.S. is the world's largest foreign investor and is certainly taking advantage of Chinese growth. That said, China is facing some hurdles in the near future as an earlier poster mentioned. You can't sustain economic growth a 8%+ year after year. China has been closing a massive gap for decades and will start to slow down. They'll begin to lose their cheap industrial advantage to other countries and will have to compete directly with U.S./EU in innovation, engineering, and high tech manufacturing to keep up.

The U.S. and China will brush shoulders on political issues, but the chances of a war are extremely remote.

 

I recall tirades like this from fifty years ago -- different names and labels , but the same message ---- the voices that then represented the failed parts of an uneducated political class.But now , it is by an uneducated raft , rather than class , who have learned very little or are simply young and enthusiastic , but lack experience and working wisdom .
Your philosophy is dated , tired and negative .
We need Power Groups or States trading within their means and doing their best for their citizens rather than trying to be number one at this , or not losing their place in that blah blah .
We need international co-operation on an increasing basis on matters that affect everybody --- essentially food , water and their distribution .
We need a growing awareness of true interdependence and the realisation that for self respect( if nothing else) , we must assist the truly disadvantaged and continue to maximise opportunities for everybody
And as we move to that sort of mature understanding , we will not be concerned about Nationalistic pride in the immature way you posture it . We will be more concerned to involve ourselves in things we can truly afford and that benefit as many people as possible .
Your way of thinking is Isolationist and reeks of Protectionism . Neither work in the long run , and America is in so much trouble already because of its insular and smug nature , that it is time for you to be guided by others. Your time is almost up .You have a failed Empire .
Fifth rate Politics and fifth rate economic understanding are your two main problems .
Have a nice day ..

 

I read the first part of your paragraph in complete agreement. I was shocked to see your name attached to it afterwards. All your anti America/Empire stuff is of course silly, but your comments on isolationism are pretty spot on.

 

As the noose tightens you might very well come to accept that those so called anti American tirades were other sound analyses , which an increasing number of respected and international commentators believe in .Essentially the proposition is subjective and a qualitative assessment rather than hard facts and figures . Inevitably , give the subject area .
I am not convinced that Americans can handle anyone criticising them in such a wholesale manner .Let alone on an " American Political site "
My start point , that the American psyche has gone rotten , is probably the most guaranteed way of not making American pals . Yet it has genuinely surprised me how many Americans quietly understand and support me , and go out of their way to let me know .

 

There is nothing rotten in the idea that China wants every piece of Ocean Real Estate it can grab and that it is willing to grab it at the expense of nations that have longer standing alliances with the USA than the Reds do. The Aussies don't give a (*)(*)(*)(*) about Japan. They hate the Japanese so of course it wouldn't bother them when China makes trouble for Japanese fishermen, naval exercises, etc.

The whole reason of integrating China and giving China breaks when it acts up is because of a foolish western notion of controlling China's rise.

They are creating Frankenstein, and that monster will one day break its chains and who knows what will happen but Peace probably isn't one of them.

 

Yes indeed I posted in an earlier thread that isolationism is not a new idea. In WW1 and WW2 there were calls for isolation, ie for staying out of Europe’s war. And the civil war was the same as was the revolutionary war when we finally kicked the kings butt back to England.

Source? You are making unsubstantiated statements which are worthless in a debate. I could just as easily said the direct opposite and it would had just as much credibility as your statement. That credibility amounts to a zero. If you are going to make silly statements you must provide a source or evidence for the validity of such trash. The more silly the better and more copious your rebuttal evidence should be.

And you have learned nothing from history or age except shut minded bigotry.

We need to eliminate unfair (to the USA) trade practices that have been the standard MO of the USA for over sixty years.

As my granddad usta' say, and he was the owner of a series of chain stores, poo (he used another word) in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up the fastest. The reason that saying is relevant is that (fair) international co-operation in this age of NAFTA and lopsided agreements is nonexistent.

I sure would like to play a game of high stakes poker with you! I need some cash! Ha ha really!!! Anyway; Self respect comes from inner strength, ie of standing on our own two feet. If we were self sufficient and isolated, and the isolation was accomplished with intelligence, the united western hemisphere could broker from pure strength instead of worrying about an international interconnected house of cards that the politicians built. I place my faith in the individual, you place yours in the state and the politicians, and that is there the rub is. I trust my fellow man, you trust your king and Clinton types.

I do. I own two Christian nonprofits that assist the needy. However nationally speaking a safety net is mandatory, and we have one in the USA. However a united western hemisphere would have the resources to provide for all its citizens a standard of living unknown today in any nation. If we were to isolate the nation could provide everything you mention. In an interconnected world that is impossible to achieve! History illustrates that in stark detail.

In most industrialized Democratic nations today corruption, corporate loopholes, greed and a built in self destruct entitlement programs along with mandatory international agreements make sustained growth impossible. In an controlled closed loop isolationist system respectable growth would be sustainable 'forever'. In the lopsided world the USA and many IDN are at a disadvantage for many reasons. I prefer strength through self sufficiency and military strength. No expansionism etc.

It's not pride that I demand. Its security through strength. There are two ways to achieve that as I pointed out. The most effective would be to isolate and disconnect from the decaying world as much as is possible.

Your ideas seem to be welling from the LSD laced koolaid that existed in your flower child youth. I hope they are only a bad flashback and that you will wake up and understand that to help others we must become stronger through self sufficiency and military strength to render aid on the scale you seem to be suggesting (many of your comments are so vague as to be nearly meaningless)

Indeed! I am happy you understand what I am saying!

Source? No the opposite is fact. Isolationist and protectionism if properly designed and implemented lasts far longer than democracies with horrifically self destructive trade agreements and corporations that are allowed to move their operations and manufacturing jobs out to counties with near or actual slave labor.

Even if the USA does not isolate I doubt in your short lifetime that she will ever be led by others. We are still the dominant culture and military power in the world and will be for a long time. The trouble is that no country can lead now. We are the last superpower, and you would be better able to sleep at night if you accept that.

Ha ha oh my… Europe is burning the middle east is seething the USSR has collapsed and is no more due to the USAs superiority. No the USA is the strongest nation on earth and will be for the foreseeable future, get used to that fact. However I do suggest we isolate for long term security and success.

Your problem is that you in your twilight years have learned little. The USA was at its strongest and richest in direct proportion to its isolation. Nothing but small details change in history and history shows just that. Even in the 1600's and 1700s the world was interconnected. The USA was strong because she was so self sufficient. Today we are at our weakest because of we are the too entangled in world affairs. Its time for the USA to pull out without even a kiss~

reva

 

Yes, I said about the same thing, except that the USA is short term goal orientated and China is long term goal oriented. A few members, most Marxist and or left wing oriented misunderstand my comments etc.

That said, Some right wing hawks are paranoid about china buying the USA and holding a large portion of the our debt. No worries IMO. China could not do too much to the USA if she forfeited on the debt, because it would be economic suicide for China and the world. Hopefully the glass house of cards will prevail. Forgive me if I am not overly optimistic that it will tho'~ at least not in the long term.

reva

 

Pure empty self serving rhetoric.

No some Americans can not handle unsubstantiated fallacies and insult. Others simply ignore prattle. I mean all the talk about how the USA is failing etc. I live in the poorest area in the USA. However when I walk my old basset up the street most of the houses are nice and have new cars in the garage or carport. I smell steaks bbq at night...yeah I mean some of us have to eat a domestic ribeye or t bone instead of an imported beef .. how bad is that?

Yeah right...

reva

 

Didn't you just hate being rubbished !!
Anyway , it's nice to see a response which inadvertently neatly underlines the very points I made .
Thanks for making me look even better than I thought I was .



P.S . I included just the one quote , above , because it was easily the funniest The sad bit is that you probably believe it and haven't a single notion why it provokes such merriment .

 

People have been saying the same thing about American/s "decline" for the past 40 years. Hell, they've been saying the same thing in most countries. There's always a portion of the crowd that thinks the glory days are over and that nothing remains. Your our own country experiences this constantly. Many Brits I've talked to are convinced that their government/country is a shell of its former self. Finding a group of Americans who support your viewpoint hardly legitimizes it.