What are your views on abortion?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Daggdag, Oct 19, 2020.

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Which best describes your view on abortion

  1. A woman has the right to choose to get an abortion with no limitations.

    28 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Abortion should be illegal after the first trimester

    8 vote(s)
    14.3%
  3. Abortion should be illegal except to preserve the health and life of the mother.

    17 vote(s)
    30.4%
  4. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

    3 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Are you just going to pretend you did not just make a major mistake in #1867? :laughing:

    This is how important it is not to conflate the potential with the actual and if you took what I have been saying throughout this thread seriously, you would not have made the serious mistake.

    A zygote ia a potential embryo, is a potential fetus is a potential newborn.

    It is a bit embarrassing that someone who has presented himself as an "expert on homo sapiens" did not know this though. :laughing:
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  2. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Okay, sorry about that.

    I think though the logic of what I said still applies though.

    I mean, suppose there is a certain wing in the hospital full of newborn babies who most of them will not live longer than a year or two. Then someone makes the claim "not all newborn babies will ever be able to talk or have a coherent understanding of what's going on around them".
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All people will "potentially" only live 15 seconds more.

    Now, isn't it fair to say if you KNEW a certain person was only going to live 15 more seconds, it wouldn't be terribly all that wrong to kill them? (You're only taking 15 seconds of life from them)

    Do you think that the percentage of these zygotes that will, if left to the natural course of events, develop into fetuses, might be relevant to their intrinsic value?

    Terminating a zygote only "potentially" prevents it from turning into a fetus, in a similar way that killing a born person only "potentially" takes any significant amount of future life from them. But you really don't know. We don't call a person a "potential life", just because we are not sure what its future potential is.

    A newborn baby is not worthless because it is only a "potential adult", "potential 2-year-old", etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  4. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    The only mistake that I made was using a word choice that would look bad if completely removed from the discussion context that I used it in. Never did I ever explicitly state "abort away" to be my personal view on those issues, as that is outside the purview of the discussion I've been participating in.

    I didn't make a mistake outside of what I said above, and YOU are the one conflating potential with actual, not me.

    Yes, as those are all particular stages of human development, and a human may or may not actually reach those stages of development before they die. That does not mean that a human does not actually exist or that a human fetus is somehow not actually a human fetus.
     
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    But here's the proof you said you'd make exceptions for abortion in the case of rape which YOU claim you didn't say :):

    """"gfm7175 said:
    Nope. As far as life of the mother, rape, and incest are concerned, abort away!! I give you those instances.

    Now, let's focus on the other 99% of instances...""""


    So you approve of the killing of a living human who has committed no crime and has expressed no desire to die
     
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  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    """"gfm7175 said:
    Nope. As far as life of the mother, rape, and incest are concerned, abort away!! I give you those instances.

    Now, let's focus on the other 99% of instances...""""


    you just approved of the choice to kill living who have committed no crime and have not expressed any desire to die
     
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  7. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    No, I ask the same question because you don't honestly answer it and I'm not going to let the focus go off of my question precisely as I asked it...

    No, I don't approve of it (you are purposely taking one post of mine completely out of context to act as if I have also answered 'yes' to the question).

    You continue to attempt to remove the focus away from 'living human'... rape, incest, and life of the mother have absolutely NOTHING to do with what constitutes a 'living human'.

    --- Maybe I'll just directly address this nonsense just to put an end to the dishonesty.

    Life of the mother: This is ultimately a choice between killing the mother or killing her unborn child. EITHER WAY, a 'living human' is going to be killed. There is NO way around this end result. Thus, THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO THE QUESTION THAT I HAVE ASKED YOU... THIS IS AN EXCEPTION TO IT, as there is NO WAY AROUND killing a living human in this particular instance, as one or the other must die.

    Rape & Incest: This comes down to the specific wording of my question, which uses the words 'living human', and defines those words as: "of the homo sapien species and has a heartbeat". Thus, under that definition, if a human fetus resulting from rape/incest HAS A HEARTBEAT, then I DO NOT approve of killing it. Additionally, I am NOT saying that it is therefore "okay" to kill a human where no heartbeat has been detected. Such humans are outside the purview of my question. I am only asking about LIVING HUMANS, you see...

    Thus, my answer to my own question is NO, I do NOT approve of the choice to kill living humans (as I have specifically defined) who have committed no crimes and have not expressed any desire to die.


    Now, please cease with your dishonestly about me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  8. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm... Not sure what you want to say here.
     
  9. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    You said all fertilised eggs become developing human beings which is not just wrong, it is ignorant. You do not even know how a pregnancy happens, yet you are here demanding you get to decide what a woman should do about her pregnancy.

    You made a major error and unless you admit you were wrong, didn't know or at least apologise for expressing yourself vaguely, you have lost ALL your credibility.

    I am not at all conflating the two. You are the one who is doing so to the degree that you think a fertilised egg is a pregnancy.

    Embarrassing. Just embarrassing.

    Hate to be that guy, but that is exactly what the word developing implies -- That which is in the process of developing from x to y is not yet y.
     
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  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The failure of our health care system to deliver health care to all citizens is certainly not limited to women.
     
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  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    """"gfm7175 said:
    Nope. As far as life of the mother, rape, and incest are concerned, abort away!! I give you those instances.

    Now, let's focus on the other 99% of instances...""""


    you just approved of the choice to kill living who have committed no crime and have not expressed any desire to die
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    So, you don't even know that such charges are determined by state law?

    Seriously?
     
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  13. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Bingo! But, until someone has actually died in 15 seconds, they have not yet died.

    This is completely detached from reality, but I will answer it anyways; no, that would be murder.

    What do you mean will develop? You cannot know that since anything can happen. Pregnancy is a very complex process and the woman can be hurt so badly that it dies before it reaches that stage. Again, potential is not actuality.

    Nope. An abortion actually terminates a pregnancy.

    Get a dictionary.

    A person who is alive is actually alive.

    Okay, and?
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There are about 150,000 rapes per year in the USA. There are at the very least 100,000 cases of incest in the USA every year. About 90% of incests go unreported, and thus the number of cases of incest is undoubted WAY in excess of 100,000.

    You do NOT get to ignore that.

    Also, you have said nothing about allowing abortion during the first trimester, cases of risk to the woman or in circumstances where the fetus has serious problems.

    You want to blow off all these very serious issues and THEN pretend like only laws against women can reduce the number of abortions.

    When seriously harmful laws get made, the full range of ramifications has to be evaluated AND there is no excuse for harmful laws when other solutions are available.

    Your whole direction in this post of yours is just plain not acceptable when discuussing ANY law.
     
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  15. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of ANY poster who has accepted your nonsensical and irrelevant terminology.

    I've stated MANY issues with it, yet you now ask if I have issues with it?

    All you are saying is that you have absolutely not listened to what ANYONE is saying on this topic.
    This is one more question that I have answered TO YOU more than once.

    You have given NO justification for using laws against women to reduce the number of abortions when other methods exist.
     
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  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I do NOT aggree or accept your absolute and total BULL.

    I asked you a serious question and you have failed to answer it.

    Your total BS word games have no place in determining issues of law.

    What I want to know is what it is that you base your desire to level more laws against women on this subject.

    It absolutely can not be your ridiculous word games. That would be just plain silly.

    So, what is it?
     
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  17. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    He has been busted before he even started posting. He is just too ashamed to say that it is God because he knows that is a totally irrational and invalid argument, so he is resorting to window-dressing in a desperate attempt to appear logical.
     
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  18. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    An egg is a single living cell and so is a sperm. Once the egg is fertilised, it is still a single-cell organism, not a human being; we are not single-cell organisms. It takes 48 hours(!) for the fertilised egg to have its first cell-division, now we have a two-cell organism, it is still not a human being. This organism has the potential to develop into a human being only if it is successfully implanted into the uterus and properly nurtured. 50% of them don't make it. Now are you saying that it is death of a human being when that happens?

    All of this is just so, so, so embarrassing. This is basic, 7th grade biology.

    You have zero knowledge of the human reproduction system and have not even bothered reading a short Wiki-entry about it. Yet, here you are, pretending to be a expert on the subject and trying to act as if this expertise is what your opposition to abortion is based on.

    You are embarrassing. You should have never posted that message. I will never let you get away with this and I will keep reminding you about it until you admit you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and are only trying to dress your Christian window in "scientific curtains" to make your argument appear more rational than the faith based mumbo-jumbo that it is.
     
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  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is a major element of dishonesty throughout his arguments.

    And, I agree that the source is undoubtedly his unwillingness to own up to his religion.
     
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  20. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    His position is clearly based on whim and mysticism. On the notion that God gives the fertilised egg a soul. He is just trying to twist and turn this whim into reason by using cute words like "homo sapiens" and referring to "heartbeats" (what he really means is "soul").

    This is truly appalling as he wishes to destroy the sacred principle of Separation of Church and State and take us back to the Dark Ages. It is monstrous on more levels than just the evilness of demanding control over women's bodies.

    If he wants theocracy, he should move to Iran.

    Edit: if you want to be religious, you are obviously free to do so. But, keep your faith to yourself, please.
     
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  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Parents have the right to withhold certain levels of care, which certainly can result in the death of a child from newbor to 18 years. That can include stuff as simple as blood transfusion.

    I don't see how that helps you in your quest to write laws against women on abortion.

    Are you thinking you want your state legislature to come up with a complete list of conditions a fetus might have along with a legal specification of what the docter and the parents are required to do?

    What's the maximum size of tumoer that a fetus can have (and on which organs)?

    What is the minimum projected lifetime of a fetus and how much pain must the fetus endure post birth before it is heartless to continue the pregnancy?

    Do you believe we have legislatures in order to force women on such issues?
     
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  22. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    I never said that. Continued dishonesty on your part.

    Yes, BUT you're trying to say that y is not yet y. (ie, "a human fetus is pre-human). That's the issue.

    Yes, a human fetus is not a human newborn is not a human adolescent is not a human adult. We agree there...

    However, you're attempting to claim that a HUMAN (whether that be a fetus, a newborn, or otherwise) is NOT a HUMAN ("pre-human", as you called it)... That's where we are at disagreement. (or more accurately, you are in paradox, since you keep switching back and forth between human and "pre-human").
     
  23. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Continued dishonesty.
     
  24. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    """"gfm7175 said:
    Nope. As far as life of the mother, rape, and incest are concerned, abort away!! I give you those instances.

    Now, let's focus on the other 99% of instances...""""



    you just approved of the choice to kill living who have committed no crime and have not expressed any desire to die


    Dishonesty is denying you posted something that you obviously posted.

    Can you really deny you posted

    """"gfm7175 said:
    Nope. As far as life of the mother, rape, and incest are concerned, abort away!! I give you those instances.

    Now, let's focus on the other 99% of instances...""""

    ??????


    It's there for anyone to see....and it is NOT "out of context" nor will any of your other excuses work :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  25. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    ***********
     

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