What are your views on abortion?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Daggdag, Oct 19, 2020.

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Which best describes your view on abortion

  1. A woman has the right to choose to get an abortion with no limitations.

    28 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Abortion should be illegal after the first trimester

    8 vote(s)
    14.3%
  3. Abortion should be illegal except to preserve the health and life of the mother.

    17 vote(s)
    30.4%
  4. Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.

    3 vote(s)
    5.4%
  1. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Under the purview of my question, as I asked it, yes I do. The cause of and/or details surrounding the pregnancy quite simply do not matter, as they have no bearing on the answer to the question. The question, rather, solely hinges on what 'living humans' are.

    There's no need for me to. My question was very straightforward.

    Never said any of that. Those things are simply not within the purview of my question.

    Laws are not being discussed here, dude. Stick to the purview of my question.

    Do you approve of the choice to kill a living human who has committed no crime and has not expressed any desire to die?

    Remember, I am not talking about dead humans, or possibly living/dead humans, but ONLY about living humans.
     
  2. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    What exactly is the issue here?

    An embryo/a fetus is NOT a human life. It is literally a clump of cells with the potential to develop and grow organs and become a human being. But, it is NOT a human life. It is a collection of stem cells. It is NOT a human being and it does NOT have rights. Abortion is a MORAL RIGHT.

    Religion. Has. No. Place. In. Politics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Um... you do realize a fetus already has organs?
     
  4. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Continued ducking and dodging noted.
     
  5. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    Continued ducking and dodging noted.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There is no possibility of you arguing that.

    And, we in the USA do have a definition of "person". And, your idea that you can change that is just plain ridiculous. You are NOT going to change our constitution on that.
    I don't accept any of you terminology nonsense as having meaning concerning law in the USA.

    And, dthis thread IS about abortion law. How could it NOT be? If our abortion related laws were irrelevant, then nobody would care WHAT you or anyone else says about abortion, because it would merely be your personal opinion.
    Asked and answered.
    This has been answered, too. And, you didn't bother to respond.

    I do not accept you ridiculous ideas on what "living humans" means with respect to abortion and law related to abortion.

    We already have terminology related to this subject. If you can't beother to use it, then that's on you.

    All you are doing is playing word games.
     
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    ??

    I'm being VERY direct with you.

    I've pointed out that there is LONG established terminology for discussing ALL aspects of abortion

    You need to use that terminology.
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The subject of abortion is not limited to fetuses.
     
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  9. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Well-Known Member

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    NOTE: I am talking about 'humans', not human "beings". I'm not going to get muddled down with the word "being" or "person". I'm solely focus on 'humans' (the species).

    Correct, but a human does BEGIN as a single-cell organism. If you wish to argue that it doesn't, I don't care either way because this has no effect on my question that I have posed to you.

    It IS, however, a human... But again, my question does not pertain to this minutiae, since there is no heartbeat yet, so I won't get bogged down with arguing the minutiae here.

    Correct.

    It could be argued that it IS the "death of a human", but this argument is beyond the purview of my simple question so I see no reason to get bogged down with it. If you wish to take the position that this is not the death of a human, then I am perfectly fine with that. This has no impact upon my question to you.

    It IS, and I agree with you on it...

    I have agreed with what you have said above. I know about the reproduction system and process.

    Attacks on my intelligence and religious beliefs aside, this has not one single bit changed the fact that you approve of the choice to kill a living human who has committed no crime and has not expressed any desire to die.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The situation surrounding the pregnancy ABSOLUTELY matters. Good Lord!

    There are important factors concerning the fetus and the woman that contribute to a decision on whether the pregnancy should be allowed to continue.

    And, you are deluding yourself if you think that your attempts to replace terminology surrounding pregnancy and child birth are helpful in ANY WAY.
     
  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I do not accept this in ANY WAY.

    A fetus is a part of a woman's body until born.

    You don't need your ridiculous terminology to disagree with that.

    For example, you can say that as per YOUR religion, a fertilized embryo has a soul and thus should have the rights of a person as addressed by our constitution.

    See? You don't need your terminology.

    And, since this is a public issue, we need one set of terminology. You are not going to get to replace the terminology used throughout the USA - not just by the general public, but in both law and medicine.
     
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  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Continued ducking and dodging noted.
     
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Continued ducking and dodging noted.
     
  14. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Continued ducking and dodging noted.
     
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    HEY, why don't you take this "brilliant" "argument" to the Supreme Court....I'm sure after listening they will surely overturn RvW .

    :roflol::roflol::roflol::roll::roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol::roflol:
     
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  16. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sometimes they are important; sometimes they are important only to the woman...
     
  17. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If one body has 2 brains, guess what? It's not all her body anymore...
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  18. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    I think FoxHastings has already explained the difference between a noun an adjective for you enough times, so I will not do it for you once more. It is indeed true that all of us who are alive (or dead for that matter) began as single-cell organisms. However, none of us are single cell organisms and not all of these single cell organisms divide enough to even start their development (back to potency and actualisation).

    Single cells are not human. They are not any different from any other cell in our body. The question you have asked me rests on a false premise.

    Guess I will have to do it despite telling you I woild not; it is human not a human.

    So you agree that it is not a human at least at that stage?

    This is beyond ridiculous.

    Your premise is false.

    Rights are principles for structuring a society applied to individuals to give them a sphere of freedom in which you can act and the right to go separate ways with those they disagree with. The rights of two individuals cannot be in conflict with each other. For example, your right to vote does not conflict with my right not to vote. This does not apply to a fetus as it is not an individuated entity, it is attached to its mother and it does not even interact with other people in society. I regard this as such a clear cut issue it should not even be up for debate -- Fetuses and embryos do not have rights.

    Once a baby is born it becomes individuated from its mother and can independently interact with its surroundings. The mother's right not to be a parent is no longer in conflict with the now newborn's right to life as she can give it up to adoption. She can no longer end its life because that would be taking away its right to life.

    Abortion is not murder by any stretch of the imagination.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
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  19. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let everyone keep in mind that Ritter has advocated abortion up to the very point of birth.
     
  20. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Yes and I full stand by that. This is not really relevant to the debate because most unwanted pregnancies are terminated long before that and the ones that ate performed later are to save the mother. Maybe you oppose even such abortions?

    What is essential is the first trimestre and up until then it is simply impossible to claim that it is anything even close to a human.

    I do not think late-term abortion is wrong though.
     
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  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    LOL!

    I've never heard THAT one!

    How do you feel about reducing the number of fetuses such that a couple of them have a better chance? Or, so that the woman has a better shot at survival?

    Who gets to make that decision? Your legislature?
     
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  22. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    It has no brain until the 7th week or so and cannot really fully make use of it until it is born, but this is just the same old "what human has two [add any part of the human body here], ha ha you just got owned."
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021
  23. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    The only tjing that matters is the woman.
     
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  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    1% of abortions are late term.

    That includes all cases of fetal anomalies and maternal danger.

    Yes, maternal life is important to the woman. Of course, that is also important to her husband, her children, and her wider family - right??

    Claiming it is ONLY important to the woman runs you into a serious problem, doesn't it?

    How can you so easily ignore maternal danger, believing what you believe and realizing the importance of having living, breathing parents and spouses?
     
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  25. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Thankfully, I do not live in a country where there are religious zealots in politics and thus abortion is almost never discussed in debates because everyone - even Christian Democrats - approve of contemporary legislation that allows it up until week 18.

    But, even here there are fiascos that perfectly illustrates the dangers of letting government into the abortion clinic; up until the 60's there was a government committee that had the job of looking at each application(!) for abortion independently(!) which, of course, lead to a long bureaucratic process that meant most abortions could not be performed until the middle of the second trimestre.:spin:
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021

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