A cake is a cake when it is a cake. Not before it is made not during it is being made but once it is actually a cake. Flour is not a cake, milk is not a cake, eggs are not a cake. Your physical life did not begin during when your mother and father began to have intercourse it began when the semen fertilised the egg, that fertilised egg was you, it is you. You, developed and continually develop. I have my own views on the soul and the spiritaul aspect of life. However it is meaningless discussing them on this thread, because I believe it is not good to talk about religion or spiritual aspects when it comes to these matters, those you are debating with see no relevance, so it is better to show reason and logic for your beliefs, not give them personal feelings about the soul, religion and spirituality.
A cake is also not a cake until it has been baked all the way through and comes out of the oven and possibly until it has had frosting put on it.
once a cake becomes a cake then and only then are the mixing of the ingredients part of the making of that cake .
Are you saying the gametes cannot turn into persons? We all came from gamete fusion. No, it is not IMHO. I dont consider biological life enough for personhood. The same applies to embryo. Its only a lifeform, not a person. It may only turn into a person in the future, if some conditions are met (just like gametes). Yes, and I was not a person then, just like I was not a person when I was a sperm cell and egg. What makes us persons (the mind) does not exist at that stage.
Life begins in the womb, I don't know exactly when but my granddaughter was born 13 weeks early and she is alive and well at 8 years old. God knows, I will ask him when I get there.
Life does not 'begin' at any point. Life is constant and ongoing. The woman is alive, the man is alive, their sperm and ovum are alive, the zygote is alive, the embryo is alive, the fetus is alive, the neonate is alive, the child is alive, the teenager is alive, the adult is alive and then it starts all over again. There is no beginning. It is circular, that's why they call it the circle of life.
scientists believe we first start to feel pain around 23 weeks, I have no issues with banning abortion past that time EXCEPT in cases of rape kidnappings or when a Potential mothers health would be at risk currently over 99% of all abortions are well before the 23 week mark .
You basically answered that question for yourself. The body is alive but the brain is not. I say a person is still technically 'alive' when they are on a life support even though they are not mentally conscious and may never be ever again. When their body completely ceases function and the process of decomposition sets in you know they are definitely dead.
I suppose... some people believe Jesus was stuck inside his dead body for 3 days before he could escape
No born person is dependent on others in that way. You've had that explained to you very thoroughly already. I didn't acknowledge my life began in the womb. It began when I was born and took my first breath. In every case it dies. To live after the death of the woman , it must leave that woman and use its own organs, as you and I do.
Some siamese twins are just as dependent on one of them as a foetus is on the mother. Or even more. Are they not persons? Post-viability, foetus is not dependent on the mother anymore. It just remains connected to her. Biological independence is not what makes us persons.
The begining of a person starts somewhere. A sperm is not able to be a person by itself neither an egg, together they form a new person. A sperm alone can never grow to be an old man, neither can an egg. Did YOUR life begin at conception? yes, or no. If yes well then theres your answer if, if no please tell me when it began.
I have what exactly explained to me thoroughly?. Someone is either dependant or they are not. People who support abortion make up criteria as they go. For eg. you say oh well the child that is born can breath for theirself and use their own organs, but the child within the womb cannot do this therefore we should be entitled to kill them. The child wether in or outside the womb is still dependant just in different ways. A 5 year old is still dependant in a different way than a 1 month old baby also. People who support abortion are setting their own criteria as they see fit. I have explained thoroughly on this site already that at different stages of development children need different kinds of support. What you are saying because at an early stage it should be permissable to kill the child because of a certain kind of support it needs within the womb, there is no reason to believe this?. Everyone needs help at different stages unitl they become independant for themselves, each stage is different. Usually the older a person gets the more independant they become until they get elderly then they become less independant.
Thats right gamete fusion not a lone gamete. A gamete on it's own can not be a person. I consider a fertilised human egg a person if you do not, thats entirely up to you. A fertilised egg is the early stages of personhood. You are a person you have always been a person right from the begining of your existence, to say otherwise is to me absurd. A person is a member of the human species, I assure you you are a member of the huamn species and you always have been from the time of your conception. After you were conceived there was no possiblity of you ever being a dog, or a cat or any other species.
believing something doesn't make it reality. I have no knowledge of what came before my conscious memories, so on my own I am not capable of answering the question of 'when did my life begin', to meet your standards. And I don't think any individual is even capable of that. Then I am dependent on the experience and knowledge of others, who actually witnessed the beginning of my life, to corroborate the fact of my existence. We may have no direct knowledge that bacteria have memories, but he also have no direct knowledge if a single bacteria organism is aware that it is living. You may 'believe' it is alive, but it has no direct knowledge of whether it is alive or when it began to live. It's nonsensical to even ask that question of the poor little prokaryote.
A pair of gametes can turn into a person, just like embryo can. So being biologically alive and having human DNA is the only requirement for personhood? Would mind upload, sentient AI and intelligent alien not be a person? What about animal rights? Should animals have no level of protection, because of their DNA, even when they are sentient? And braindead but biologically alive humans would still need to be protected (say good bye to brain death as legal definition of death, and thus all organ transplantations). A definition of personhood (or legal protection) must in some form reference the mind, or sentience (or brain cortex). Definition based solely on biological life and DNA sequence is insufficient, because it excludes higher animals, non-biological and alien intelligent entities, and it includes mindless and braindead humans, which is absurd. Mindless life is not inherently valuable. The philosophical question of personhood is far more complicated as pro-lifers think. And yes, its ultimately an opinion, so descriptive science wont solve it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood
And a fetus is not able to be a person by itself either, not until it leaves the womb. And no, my life did not begin at conception. My life and existence began long before that. As I already stated I believe in reincarnation. Each new life I have had never truly started until I took my first breath and my soul entered the body, which was upon BIRTH.
I don't support abortion but I support having the option of abortion, I presume that amounts to the same thing for the purposes of this topic. At some point, inorganic matter in my father's body was turned into organic matter that would later grow into what I am today. That is when the non-living matter became living matter. However, *I* did not exist then. At some point that matter became a sperm. That was not only alive, but a living creature. However, *I* did not exist then. Later, that sperm impregnated my mother. Then, there was a fetus. Not having any personality of any kind, however, *I* did not exist then. Sometime in between then and being born, the brain matter developed which gave that living creature the possibility of having a personality. That is when *I* existed. That is what matters, not when life began. A "person" is an individual human being. A human egg which cannot survive separation from its parent is not an individual. Therefore it is not a person, although it may have the beginnings of a personality. What a shame that you are under the delusion that this is not up to debate. Hopefully the contents of this thread have illustrated plainly to the contrary.
Tracing back an individual life is not the same as tracing forward an event - one has occurred one is yet to occur. Not all fertilised eggs become human but at one time all humans were simply eggs - but then if we continue back in time then at one time we were emissions from stars
Tell me when do you believe YOUR life began? Iw ould like to know the exact moment you blieve it began.
All fertilised eggs are human beings. The are living entities that are human. All people were not eggs all people were fertilised eggs. I would like for people to stop avoiding the question and please tell me the exact moment they believe their lives began.
I would say a fetus is a person. Why do you believe otherwise?. If you believe in reincarnation I would like to know when you believe the exact moment was you began this life. Was it before they cut the umbilical cord or after?. Was it the moment your entire body was out from your mother?, or was it when you were partially out?. I would really like to know. Most pro-life people have a consensus on when life begins, those who support abortion however have no such consensus, depending on who and when you are talking to them their opinion on this can change.
My current life began when my soul entered my body upon the first breath of life when I left my mother's womb. Without a soul my body was merely an empty vessel left to the will of my mother or to nature.
