Why I am not a Christian

Jesus placed an enormous amount of emphasis on the moral choices we make and how they define us as individuals, not superficial things such as our sex, place in the family (first or last born), social status, whether we are rich or poor, powerful or weak, citizen or alien, free or slave, etc., that had determined people's identity in the past. It was a revolutionary message that broke with the assumption and acceptance of natural inequality in the Ancient world, and some have submitted that it's the fountainhead of Western Individualism and Liberalism (in the classical, libertarian sense of the word).

That and the message of equality and reciprocity connected to it can be found throughout Jesus' teachings in the NT/Gospels, and if you need an example or a place to start the Sermon on the Mount is an obvious choice.

 

Perhaps...but I think the right might be taking that idea a bit too far....
that's why I'd like to hear more about this conversation....

Can you be more specific regarding that statement?

 

of course

 

I sincerely hope that is true for your sake....
I know your health hasn't been all that great lately

 

Not sure of the connections you are making.

 

Jesus' insistence on personal responsibility is spread throughout his teaching in many ways, subtle and direct. Pointing to any single place is unnecessary, but here are a few:.
Matt. 9:22, Mark 5:34, Luke 17:19, John 9, and especially Matt. 21:21.
On the other hand, where can it be shown that he pointed otherwise?

 

The Jesus character never said anything about that issue.

 

Well, Adam & Eve did eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and became as smart as God on those issues. So who needs God?

 

Thanks for citing Matt 21:21 because it proves that no one in history has ever believed in the Jesus character. Good job of debunking the fairy tale.

 

Metaphor requires openness in order for full meaning to emerge.
It is not necessary to "believe in Jesus", i.e., accept what society has heaped upon belief, in order to understand his message. It is not necessary to "believe the Bible" for its symbols to connote transcendent meaning.
The cited incident in the Garden is a fantastic example. By their choice, the couple stumbled upon the error of dualism, the projection of division onto the universe. The animals do not suffer from this. For them, everything is just as it is, not compared with what it could be. Humans learn from birth that what is one thing, existence, is cut in two and we struggle all our lives to rejoin the halves.
This is very similar to what Buddha or Lao Tzu would have us understand. Even this language being used to explain is permeated with the "sin", positing as it does a "better" understanding.

 

Why - because of the Left's phony "atomization" slurs?

I humbly submit that 1) this isn't a Left or Right thing and 2) if one studies the history of Ancient Greece and Rome (starting with Fustel de Coulanges' The Ancient City: A Study on the Religion, Laws and Institutions of Greece and Rome) they'll discover just how revolutionary Jesus' message was for its time and the seismic impact it had on the West. Furthermore, I don't think people make enough of the contributions Jesus and his followers made in the evolution of Western Individualism and Liberalism, which are two of the distinguishing features of our civilization. How are we to know, understand and appreciate our civilization if we are ignorant of our History and can't connect to it? People think our notions of Individualism and Liberalism sprang out of the ether during the Enlightenment when in fact they are the product of a long, torturous and painfully slow evolutionary process that began thousands of years ago. None of the ideas Locke and others professed were original - they had all been expressed centuries before them. Social contract theory, natural rights, the sovereignty of the people over their secular and religious leaders, the separation of Church & State, etc., all of it. It's an amazing and inspiring story, and most of us are deaf and blind to it.

 

LOL - He flogged it to the bone and sinew.

I'm the furthest thing from a biblical scholar or exegete and even I couldn't miss that...

 

Then perhaps you can point to somewhere that a Bible scholar claims we have "free will"
So called Christians tend to claim that their own ideas about everything are what the Bible says....
they seem to think that justifies whatever they do....
like calling everyone who does not agree with them "a nation of sheep".

 

Impressive sounding titles....but you're simply referring to someone else's opinion that matches your own
Where are the quotes from the Bible that say we have "free will"?

 

Why do you need the Bible to tell you that you have free will ?

 

Maybe not his most important idea, but I think his comments about usery, and other comments about it in the bible are a big one. I think our entire planet has gone against those teachings, and has made a world where there is the elite, and everyone else. It has created a world where everyone is working there ass off perpetually just to keep their heads above water to pay off debts, and can often not even pay off interest, let alone the principle. It has created a society that works to acquire material things rather than spiritual enrichment.

 

I'm referring to contemporary and historical fact, not my opinion, but if you'd like to dispute that I'm truly interested to hear what you think.

We were discussing personal responsibility.

I hate to answer a question with a question, but consider this: if Jesus thought we had no free will why would he preach to us about the moral choices we should make?

Free will is implicit in moral agency and personal responsibility.

 

"Father, if you will, please don't make me suffer by drinking from this cup. But do what you want, and not what I want."

 

They are claiming Jesus said we have free will...I'm just asking them to show where he said that.

 

HeyZeus said - "Do unto others" this means you have free will

 

I think I've already addressed that, but I'll take a look.

In the meantime, perhaps you can point out where in the Bible it states that Man does not have free will?

I can only speak for myself, and while the Bible says what it says I know that different people are going to interpret what it says differently.

That's probably true of everyone, but your comment suggests you might be getting at something else. I've heard similar criticism attacking certain strains of metaphysics. theology and philosophy, such as the Nominalism and Voluntarism that has been fairly or unfairly ascribed to Wiliam of Ockham, who has been blamed by people in some quarters for all of Modern Man's ills (unjustly, in my estimation and opinion).

And then there are those who deny the Christianity of others who disagree with them.

I think you and I can discuss, debate and even disagree on things without being rude to one another, as we have done in the past.

 

Yes humans can choose which boots to wear...what to eat or drink, etc..
but even those choices depend on availability...on circumstances.
This idea of "we make our own destiny" sells lots of self-help books..makes some folks rich.
We can thank God that humans don't have free will...
they would have destroyed everything long ago.

 

If those who wrote the Bible did not believe humans have choice, they would not have written the Bible. This is so obvious that we can only take the question as being disingenuous.

 

A person can choose to end existence. There is no greater "freedom" than that.

 

Jesus didn't even claim he had free will...nor did he preach about personal responsibility.
Those are ideas humans latch onto nowadays to bolster their egos.
They can say "look how much I have"...."if you are poor, then you are lazy"...."you are irresponsible".
Poor people are not responsible for everything that happens to them...
and people don't get rich simply because they worked harder than the poor person...
it's more likely they got rich because they figured out how to use poor people....or inheritance.