Why kill the innocent?

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Thrasos, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    47,912
    Likes Received:
    16,438
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It's immoral to have to be born to have rights?
    Yes, one is not a legal person until birth. Until birth a fetus is part of the woman it's in.

    IF a fetus is a legal person the woman it's in would still have a right to get rid of it because NO ONE has the right to use another's body to sustain their life.
    NO ONE can make you give them a blood transfusion or your heart or kidney to sustain their life ….you have bodily autonomy....and so do women.




    But no one can force them to give a heart or a kidney to another to sustain their lives.


    A fetus is NOT equal to the woman it's in....they can't be, the woman will always have the right to eliminate the fetus.



    Uh, I don't think you have a good grasp of what bodily autonomy means..

    If you are threatening to throw me over a cliff I can stop you from harming me anyway I can up to, and including , killing you.

    Pregnant women have that same right....they do not have to accept harm from another.

    Bodily autonomy means one person canNOT force another to use their body to sustain the life of another....nothing to do with throwing somone over a cliff.


    Because that's when most fetuses can survive outside the womb....it's science, don't let it confuse you.



    You seem, like most Anti-Choicers, to want fetuses to have MORE rights than anyone else...the right to use another's body to sustain their lives. The right to harm another without their consent...

    WHY should something that has no knowledge of the world, can't think, have more rights than anyone else?

    Why should anyone have more rights than anyone else?
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  2. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If abortion was banned, how would that be "others doing things" to a woman's body? What "THINGS" are you talking about?
     
  3. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not talking about healthcare coverage, I'm talking about the fact that there is no right to healthcare.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  4. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why? What did I say?
     
  5. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    And up to what point in the pregnancy would you hold that standard?
     
  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    47,912
    Likes Received:
    16,438
    Trophy Points:
    113

    "Health care" has NOTHING to do with bodily autonomy....the right to have an abortion whether covered by health care or not, that is irrelevant...
     
  7. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Again, I'm not talking about coverage.
     
  8. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    47,912
    Likes Received:
    16,438
    Trophy Points:
    113
    FoxHastings said:
    NO, it's protecting your body from others doing things to it without your consent.



    :) can you admit that sometimes you try to be deliberately obtuse?

    Here's your answer : FORCING a woman to gestate is "doing things to her body"...without her consent

    and then you can
    A. Pretend you don't have a clue
    B. segue off on another topic...
    C. ask a silly question


    I'm betting on all there :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    47,912
    Likes Received:
    16,438
    Trophy Points:
    113
    FreshAir said:
    yes, and that is the point, the procedure is the same either way, it's just choosing not to have a baby, a choice only the potential mother can make



    Why don't you address what was posted?

    Comment on the post you quoted instead of jumping off onto another issue???

    Don't you understand that an abortion due to rape is exactly the same as an abortion due to consensual sex or don't you want to admit it?
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    47,912
    Likes Received:
    16,438
    Trophy Points:
    113
    FoxHastings said:
    "Health care" has NOTHING to do with bodily autonomy....the right to have an abortion whether covered by health care or not, that is irrelevant...



    "Health care" has NOTHING to do with bodily autonomy....the right to have an abortion whether covered by health care or not, that is irrelevant...
     
    Derideo_Te likes this.
  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    99,240
    Likes Received:
    32,778
    Trophy Points:
    113
    about 26 weeks, that would be me personally, but that is for the women to decide

    http://www.slate.com/id/2120872/
    "a member of President Bush's Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn't possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead."
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
    FoxHastings and Derideo_Te like this.
  12. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Ah, okay, so then I can kill someone as long as it's a pain free death? I have admitted my 'logical consistency' problem, and it looks like you have one of your own - just admit it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  13. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    One again, I'm not talking about coverage.
     
  14. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Not quite the same in my opinion. One is the abortion of a baby conceived via a consensual act, one is not.
     
  15. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Not even you would say that women were forced to gestate prior to safe abortions!
     
  16. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh I see, so if people were slaughtered in another country in a genocide, you wouldn't care because you're not a citizen of that country? Come on.
     
  17. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    291
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Why not?

    What if you are unconscious? Is it ok for your friend to force me to put you down and not drop you off the cliff I'm holding you over?

    If am holding you in my arm, and dangling you over a cliff, can you not force me to safely put you down rather than drop you? Is that not you demanding what I do with my arm?

    Most? So is it the number of weeks or viability in a given case that you think should be the cut off point?

    Yes, it is science that that is when most unborn are viable to survive outside the womb. That's not what I asked you though.

    I'm not anti-Choice. I'm merely asking you to make your case or at least explain your point of view.

    I said no such thing.


    I don't think anyone should. The question here is whether or not, and at what stage of development the unborn is to be counted among "anyone".

    I do see your answer to that question here:

    You do think some should have more rights than others, and that some are not equal to others, and you base that either on viability or on time of birth (you haven't made that clear). I don't see your reasoning behind either of those standards though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  18. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    No, but I'm honest enough to admit that it's hard for me to claim to be logically consistent in justifying it.

    It's only rape if it's non-consensual or if it's an adult and an underage person. Unless US law say that it's rape?
     
  19. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2015
    Messages:
    43,275
    Likes Received:
    34,584
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Let's begin with the basics so as to clear up any confusion.

    The 14th Amendment makes it clear that rights begin at BIRTH and NOT before then.

    Prior to birth a fetus ONLY has whatever "rights" the woman carrying it CHOOSES to give it.

    The RvW decision AFFIRMED the absolute right of women to have abortions throughout the full term of a pregnancy for REASONS pertaining to RISKS to her HEALTH and/or LIFE. That means if there is a choice between her life or the fetus SHE takes precedence ALWAYS,

    The RvW decision AFFIRMED the absolute right of women to have abortions throughout the FIRST TRIMESTER of the pregnancy. This is when the MAJORITY of all abortions occur.

    The RvW decision INVOKED the right of the States to REGULATE abortions in the SECOND Trimester because these usually involve INVASIVE medical procedures but they CANNOT ban abortions during this period.

    The RvW decision INVOKED the right of the States to BAN abortions in the THIRD Trimester with the notable EXCEPTION that abortions MUST still be ALLOWED if there is any RISK to the life and/or health of the pregnant woman.

    That is where the Law of the Land stands on this issue. Abortion was LEGAL when the nation was FOUNDED therefore that right is PROTECTED by the 9th Amendment.

    The concept of VIABILITY pertains to fetal DEVELOPMENT. Before viability a fetus will always die outside the uterus. The ability of the fetus to SURVIVE post viability depends upon a number of factors and less developed it is the greater the odds of having serious physical and mental problems during the subsequent lifetime. Anecdotes abound but are meaningless. The DATA establishes that 24 weeks is the point of viability where the odds of survival are greater than zero.

    Those are the FACTS as they stand today.

    There are a great many problems with granting rights to a fetus EQUAL to those of the woman carrying it and they will need to have FEASIBLE solutions before any of them can become the Law of the Land. An example would be incarcerating a pregnant women CONVICTED of a crime would mean incarcerating the INNOCENT fetus at the same time. There are additional risks to the fetus that arise from incarceration. How would YOU deal the VIOLATION of the rights of the innocent fetus being incarcerated because the woman carrying it committed a crime?

    That is just one example of the CONFLICTS that arise when you attempt to grant a fetus rights. Another is WHEN do those fetal rights BEGIN? At the point of CONCEPTION there is NOT any unique DNA but rather 2 sets of DNA that still need to split and recombine in a process that results in failure a significant percentage of the time. Does that failure count as a "fetal negligence" crime and how would you deal with it? If you arbitrarily decide that the fetus has rights at the stage of implantation what subsequently happens if the woman has a miscarriage? Does that failure count as a "fetal negligence" crime and how would you deal with it?

    The above are just illustrations of the COMPLEXITIES that are often IGNORED by those taking a simplistic approach to this issue. There is NO easy one size fits all answer and the BEST answer anyone has devised to date is RvW. Feel free to find a better one but so far no one has.
     
    FoxHastings likes this.
  20. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's like no other medical procedure. It actually has nothing to do with HEALTH unless it is required to save a woman's life.

    So most pro-life people don't actually want abortion banned? Surely you can't be serious!
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  21. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Exactly @FoxHastings! :roflol:
     
  22. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Why the hell would I need to do that?
     
  23. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The post of mine which you quoted (the one that I quote here) wasn't even directed to you. You have a habit of jumping into other people's conversations.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  24. chris155au

    chris155au Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2017
    Messages:
    24,238
    Likes Received:
    2,398
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It's around half a billion.
     
  25. David Landbrecht

    David Landbrecht Newly Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2018
    Messages:
    778
    Likes Received:
    386
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    It is not right to forbid a woman to have a safe abortion if she judges it necessary.
     
    FoxHastings likes this.

Share This Page