Why the world should adopt a basic income

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Donor

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    Because there is no "sheriff" to redirect the debate when it goes off the rails.

    As there would be in any "real debate" amongst professional debaters ...
     
  2. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    We'd need perfect competition, with fully informed economic agents exhibiting time consistent and stable preferences. Perfect exchange environment!
     
  3. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    I don't accept, "because Coase" as any sort of legitimate explanation.
     
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  4. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Bald assertion fallacy.
     
  5. Anikdote

    Anikdote Well-Known Member

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    That the Coase Theorem isn't cannon is certainly news to me. My gripe though, was specifically with the circular nature of the questioning without much attempt to drive the discussion forward.

    Starting on post #183, Longshot asks:
    To which @Reiver explains that an agent may have costs imposed upon him by other actors, and that this coercion justifies or points to a need for interventions. A long running criticism flung at anyone who wants to treat the "free" market as some sort of panacea.

    I suppose, from my perspective, I didn't see any effort to drill down, hence my compliant.

    Maybe a restating of positions would give us some solid footing to agree/disagree upon. On one hand, we have the claim that markets, even "free" markets are characterized by coercive relationships that evolve as a result of transaction costs, principle agent problems and rent seeking. I'm not entirely clear what the contraposition here is? Is someone making a claim that markets are free and clear of coercion? That we transact in a world of no costs?
     
  6. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Coercion is defined as the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats. If you wish to claim that a free market is predicated on coercion, can you please describe the parties involved (the coercer and the coerced) and what the force or threats are?
     
  7. Anikdote

    Anikdote Well-Known Member

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    My claim is that any market, anywhere has coercive aspects. There's been a couple of examples given already but perhaps restating one of them would be useful?

    The implicit threat of unemployment will drive you to accept wages both below your productive value and potentially below industry standards. In this case the hiring part has information that you do not, has bargaining power in that, you aren't likely to drop everything and relocate in order to optimize your salary and there's only a limited number of places where your skills are needed.

    This isn't really novel, we wouldn't look at a poker game where some players were aware of what others players hands were and call it fair, the reason it's coercive and not just unfair is because you must play or face the threat of starvation or destitution.

    You can complain all you want about the term, but the underlying facts seem irrefutable.
     
  8. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Well-Known Member

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    "My claim is that any market, anywhere has coercive aspects."

    This is what is at issue- the definition of "coercive".

    "The implicit threat of unemployment will drive you to accept wages both below your productive value and potentially below industry standards.'

    This isn't coercion.

    The only coercive aspect in any market is government. Minimum wage, taxation of supplies, monopolies and coporate personhood are all examples of proper coercion of the market place but one can not site the natural state of a thing and claim it to be coercive.
     
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  9. Anikdote

    Anikdote Well-Known Member

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    I've provided examples already, and I thought we established we using a term here not plucking a word from a the dictionary...

    Then why on earth do economists keep using it that way?

    https://www.nber.org/papers/w15581

    That's just silly. What about a company that sucks up all the available drinking water or pollutes it? What of private firms colluding to suppress wages? Please tell me you're not one of those, "the government is the source of all our woes" folks, are you?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  10. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You still haven't given any examples of anyone trying to persuade someone to do something by using force or threats. I think you don't quite understand what coercion means.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    If minimum wage is so mutually beneficial, why must it be imposed by force?
     
  12. jay runner

    jay runner Well-Known Member

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    Those electric cars are going to get their concentrated energy from combustion, or roll on skinny bicycle wheels with solar panels on the roof, and have just enough room for a truly skinny person to get in.
     
  13. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    How much would you expect that I'll get each month in this sytem?
     
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  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Like a retiree who lives off the dividend income from their IRA?
     
  15. jay runner

    jay runner Well-Known Member

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    You don't ask. They tell you. You be happy with that, or else.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  16. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Market failure? Do tell.
    Market inefficiency? Please tell us about that.
     
  17. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You've claimed that labor market fails, yet you offer no explanation as to what this failure is. You're claimed that there is some market inefficiency, and also have not explained what this inefficiency is. So I can't really take these claims seriously.
     
  18. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    No it's not. Unless you can explain why this is the case.
    If you mean being paid below the agreed upon price, then that would be cause for legal action.
     
  19. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Supply curves slope upward, so yes.
     
  20. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Well done! You've just confirmed monopsonistic power. If the firm faces an upward sloping labour supply then it has wage making power.
     

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