Why the world should adopt a basic income

Because it's observable.

What happened in Detroit? A prosperous middle class population (c.1.8 million) reduced to poverty (c.700,000), and the highest crime rates in the country.
In other words, external circumstances, in this case competitive economic systemic failure, play a role in the (poor) choices individuals make. Such processes are occurring everywhere around the globe at all times.

Maybe true; that's why the nation should institute the Right and the Responsibility to work (participate in the economy at above poverty level), to achieve zero involuntary underemployment.

I don't know the actual figures.... but the Great Depression certainly increased poverty and unemployment rates!

The value to the community, not always measurable by the value of private sector (profit driven) employment.

Involuntary underemployment is currently running around 10% in most first world economies - so there's the answer to that question.

Why not?

Redundancy, overcapacity in the global economy (eg in vehicle manufacturing and other industries) , poor demand, high indebtedness, trade wars etc - all systemic issues (see above).

 

You are now not engaging in the debate, with that (willfully?) silly remark; I see why Lafayette observed as much in an earlier post.

 

I used to be against this, but in the future I see it as the only option

AI, Foreign outsourcing and Foreign imports will make it a reality

 

There's nothing to debate. You and several others have expressed a dream (which in this context is a wish your heart makes) but are insulted that I would suggest that it be put to the test to see it's viability. Given what we know of similar historical policies, it will all end in tears, but I'm willing to test it to see. I suspect that you would just prefer to impose it worldwide with no testing just in case you don't like the results.

Extraordinarily crazy plans should have extraordinarily rigorous evidence and testing.

 

Ah, this post is not quite as silly as your previous one: you have partially reverted to your former "willing to test it to see it" stance.

And I have explored some of the issues around the testing the proposal; MMT proponent Stephanie Kelton has visited several countries to "spread the word" (MMT), but I wonder if any one country alone can test it (as she is saying), because it's difficult to separate a nation's internal economic activity from its external trade.

In any case, I'm not interested in imposing anything that does not produce the desired results - neoliberalism is disastrous enough for the billions already living in poverty around the globe.

 

HISTORIC AGE CHANGE

What has happened throughout the US is something far-too-many Americans DO NO WANT TO UNDERSTAND.

That "thing" is called fundamental "Age Change". Just as the steam-engine (amongst other innovations) brought about the evolution of the Agricultural Age to the Industrial Age, then also the Internet has brought about the advance from the Industrial Age to the Information Age.

So, let us all UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF THE PROBLEM! And perhaps we can address it?

We need to STOP SPENDING MORE THAN HALF THE DISCRETIONARY BUDGET ON THE DOD! It is a comparative waste of taxpayer dollars that can be better spent elsewhere!

See here:


Where elsewhere? On free or nearly free Tertiary Education*. Which will give our people the skills/talents that will allow them access to higher level vocations at a much better pay-scale ....!

*Which both Bernie and Hillary promised the American people when a warped manipulation of the popular-vote gave the presidency to Donald Dork.

 

FUNDAMENTAL AGE CHANGE

Aint no dream. Open your eyes. See the logic of what we are saying!

We are in a process of fundamental Age Change as wrenching as was that of the transfer from the Agricultural Age to the Industrial Age. That process is inescapable and has been happening to mankind since the caveman!

The Internet is the chief characteristic motoring that evolution, and people like you are fixated upon the past.

The past is "old-hat". Forget it! Let's move on - or others will move faster and Uncle Sam will suffer the economic consequences ...

 

The above resembles either a campaign speech or religious oratory. In either case, it does nothing to advance MMT. So, when is France going to implement this?

 

Just because you cannot understand fundamental economic changes that are happening all around us is no excuse for blathering in a Economics Debate forum.

You'd be happier on a Message Board ... ?

 

Insane to read this and think someone actually believes it as a response to what he wrote.

This economy is a Bubble, can semi rich people with businesses up to 20M be doing good on the backs of their workers and tax breaks alone. YEP ! I know several, yes, they work hard, and they DRIVE their labor, immigrants to work even harder. In place of paying 60% tax, they pay 10%. They hoard their money and force their employees to live week to week for **** pay. No, the people cant go elsewhere, there are no other jobs, so yuo do what you have to.
So many people, like this comment and others are based solely on THEIR own experience, or what they read and pass off as "this is it, the truth" WHEN !!!! Actually, so many different situations are out there. One knows for a fact, DEBT is all we have, the economy, pay rate is ****, inflation rampant, and good jobs ARE GONE, Insurance is expensive, yet, if you get hurt, you pay out the azz. It is OBTUSE to think anything but more garbage is coming.

It isnt everyone wants free, most want to work for good pay. The Irony is, and I bet your one, you are doing fine, so, "EVERYONE else who isnt is a schmuck, a loser, a burden on society, wants handouts, etc. It is so wrong, in so many ways, so anti american from what we were. But, seems to be ok with the christian conservative, pretend to care about all while hoarding your own life. Pathetic Americans !

 

I don't understand what point you are trying to make, other than some useless snark. If you have some evidence on the validity of MMT, then present it, if you don't, don't criticize the guy who wants evidence, go find it.

 

I moved plenty of times and lived in several different places in order to advance myself, to believe there is not a segment of our population that is more than happy to live off government hand outs is folly and the more the hand out the more of such people we will have. That's how welfare reform in the late 1990's worked, by tightening work requirements and shortening the time one could collect and guesss what, people went back to work. The Obama administration reversed that and we saw a HUGE decline in the LFPR and continual extension and expansion of benefits and we had the worse unemployment in modern history. And you observations about the current economy could not be further from the truth. We have more jobs that people to fill them, manufacturing jobs are expanding at decades old rates, wage increases the highest in decades and accelerating. I call on manufacturing and the are hurting for people to come in a work at good jobs instead of people working a few months then not showing up anymore because they can again go and collect their pennies.

 

What was wrenching about it. It was a modern marvel. I was just reading that part in Milton Friedman's book Free to Choose just yesterday
" It took nineteen people out of twenty workers to feed the country's inhabitants and provide a surplus for export in exchange for foreign goods. Today it takes fewer than one out of twenty workers to feed the 220 million inhabitants (1979) and provide a surplus that makes the United States the largest single exporter of food in the world."

His point being it was not a central government directing this movement but people acting in their own self interest free to try new things and methods. Land was made available and most what was unproductive land.

" They were free to experiment with new techniques----at their risk if the experiment failed and to profit if it succeeded. They got little assistance from the government. Even more important, they encountered little interference from the government."

 

America has come a long way since it was the Very First country to ever create a Constitution. (France was not far behind but effed it up. Napoleon was the consequence.)

But, what Americans did not catch onto is the social revolution in thinking that (it too) started off with Karl Marx and his Communism. Marx's complaints were valid, but assuming that the state should be responsible for both KEY ASPECTS of a market economy (Supply&Demand) was dead-wrong.

It took a while - and a war or two - for Europe to show the world how a Social Democracy should work for the betterment of all its constituents and do so within a capitalist structure.

Social Democracy, Definition (from WikiP):

'Nuff said? Likely not ...

*Meaning not "equal outcomes" but "fair and just outcomes". Meaning, yes, there will be divergence in salaries earned but sufficient taxation will assure that they are NOT EXORBITANT. Which has been the case in the US since JFK, LBJ and Reckless Ronnie reduced upper-income taxation. (Don't believe that? Then see that historical fact here!)

 

You are mixing up time lines. The industrial revolution: children of the poor working their entire lives underground in coal mines, no public education. Not wrenching enough for you?

Back to own time: you prefer Friedman's small government, self interest, neoliberal ideology. I prefer Keynes co-operative "clearing union" concept, to which all nations would belong, for example, as a method of dealing with trade imbalances.

How's the export of US soybeans going? Yesterday we learned that China cut back imports of soybeans from 2 million to 300,000 tons - a wonderful example of neoliberalism on the world stage, under Trump's "America First" BS, and the resultant trade war. (The resigning World Bank CEO called that out yesterday). Self interest gone mad - no comprehension of prosperous development in all nations. So we have Trump closing the government down, with his visionless plan to keep out refugees from poverty in South America.. We are in a global economy - you can't escape it, deal with it. Friedman offers nothing except trade wars.

 

No I'm not,

"By 1900, 34 states had compulsory schooling laws; four were in the South. 30 states with compulsory schooling laws required attendance until age 14 (or higher).[66] As a result, by 1910, 72 percent of American children attended school. Half the nation's children attended one-room schools. By 1918, every state required students to complete elementary school.[67]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States

At the same time child labor was being restricted and even outmoded as machines and methods to do their jobs better while at the same time we were moving from a agriculture dominated to and industrial dominated and it wasn't government that enabled that, it was people acting in their own best interest

But you would rather that we had not mined coal, had not had the industrial revolution and just stayed an agrarian economy? Why would we be better of now?

Sorry the United States giving up it's sovereignty and it's own monetary system and currencny is just not even a point of discussion. Ain't gonna happen and wouldn't work anyway. And we see the attempt to move in that direction in the EU falling apart.

So where are they going to find the soybeans to replace them? What other country has a surplus 1.7 million tons of soybeans. You do know this is an ongoing negotiation with both sides posturing. How are those tariffs China puts on OUR goods doing?

We had the Democrats to thank for refusing to even discuss let alone negotiate .05% of the budget for something they supported in the past. We have it because the Democrats would rather try to use this as a political ploy for some reprieved political gotcha.

Friedman didn't support tariffs or trade wars what are you talking about. He supported open markets.

 

Courtesy of government acting on behalf of the 'common welfare'.

.

Government was required to manage the abuses that result from short-sighted self interest.

Of course not; but were children really required to mine coal?

.

That's the "America First" conservative view. Absolute sovereignty is anachronistic nonsense in a global world.
As for the EU, they don't have a bank union, so of course the EU will fall apart.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-amid-trade-war-turns-to-brazil-idUSKCN1M60UT

Looks like Brazil is quite capable.

As for tariffs, they are the result of misguided self-interested policies.

In so far as the Dems love "absolute national sovereignty", they are as responsible for the present mess as the Repubs (conservatives/tribalists/Neanderthals).

Open markets - with winners and losers, and entrenched poverty, as in Detroit and the 'first world rust belt', requiring government welfare, or tariffs....or (trade) wars.

 

Moving right along ...

 

Local governments, local private groups, churches, etc etc. NOT the federal government which properly and Constitutionally stayed our of education..

And it's only roll not regulating it. And self interest are NOT short sighted they are generally long term.

They were called Break Boys, they broke up the coal..

It's the American view to protect our citizens and our way of government. That's not going to change so it is a moot point.

Announced today that agreements are almost complete, soybean prices are up and new orders are being placed.

SYDNEY, Jan 7 (Reuters) - U.S. soybean futures rose for a fourth consecutive session on Monday to hit a three-week high as optimism that Washington and Beijing can strike a comprehensive trade deal buoyed prices.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/06/reu...k-high-as-u-s-china-meet-for-trade-talks.html

To whom were they selling those tons to?

Then tell that to the countries who place them on OUR products.

Why would you want to put your freedom and liberty under the whims of other countries. And yes open markets, free markets, capitalism which produces more successful people and the lowest poverty. Capitalism did not create the crime that so permeates the black sections of Detroit which drives away businesses and jobs nor did the Democrats city officials engage in conservative measures to turn the ciry around but high taxes and high spending projects which ultimately fail.

 

The preamble:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Of course education ought to be the business of Government, so that you don't have conflicting ideologies in the public sphere....we obviously have along way to go to achieve this. You are simply stating your view of the Constitution.

[Note: Constitutions are not 'holy writ'; they need to be upgraded from time to time (but like fundamentalist theologians, Conservatives won't see the need for change, as knowledge and circumstances change)].

Yeh, that's right, and so "greed is good"....

And such abuses were the reason why Karl Marx forced himself to study economics for 10 years...

But "America First"? The citizens of China or Britain or Germany also have their view.

From my linked article:

"Brazil’s soybean export season typically ends in August-September after which cargoes from the United States take over the market until March. The South American nation is the world’s top exporter, while the United States is No. 2.
But Chinese importers have this year booked a record 12 to 14 million tonnes of Brazilian beans for October-November arrival, according to the trader and an analyst in China. That comes as increases in storage capacity and improved logistics have allowed Brazil to extend its selling season".

Well...in the dog eat dog world that you support, ie, without central oversight (like a global sports competition without rules) - of course they will.

An international rules based system is not "under the whims of other countries".

"The UN UDHR Article 25 contends that states must also take action to ensure that all citizens enjoy an adequate standard of living".

Obviously you can't have liberty and freedom, without the basic requirements for prosperity.

As Trump noted (in the 2016 campaign, of the inner city suburbs):

"You are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones, your young men are in prison, your schools and hospitals are broken...."

But lack of a Keynesian "clearing union" or similar global oversight mechanism certainly reduced Detroit to poverty(and the 'rust belt' all around the first world - as cheap labour in Asia took the jobs during Asia's post WW2 rise). The crime followed.

 

And the preamble has no legal bearing. Education is a STATE matter, always has been even after the Department of Education was establish to be more a clearing house of information which then as usual when the government starts something now tries to dictate.

You asked a question and I answered it.

Of course they do, what's your point? Do you think the American people would support our adopting more their government and economic systems?

And you think they have 3 billion is surplus tonnes sitting around they can just sell to China instead of us?

And as I said the trade deal is about to be signed, price are moving upwards and new orders are being placed.

Of course they want, free trade is not "dog eat dog" as Friedman says can you point to be these benevolent centrally controlled governments where the citizens prosper more than here, have more economic freedom, have more personal freedom?


An international rules based system is not "under the whims of other countries".

I could care less about the corrupt UN. A body that puts the country of Syria on it's human rights commission. Do you think we should put our civil and human rights under the control of Syria?

And?

No crime and liberal responses to it reduced Detroit to poverty. Liberal, socialistic policies required high tax rates on businesses and citizens caused the collapse of their tax base and that loss of jobs reduced Detroit to poverty. Liberal social attitudes reduced Detroit to poverty.

 

Why the world should adopt a basic income

And it will last as long as the oil lasts.

 

We agree on that, then?...but read on...

Here's the thing: a functional international rules based system would be administered by a body such as a UNSC without veto powers; imagine a US Supreme Court in which the justices all have veto power!...obviously incompatible with rule of law in the national sphere; in like manner the veto is incompatible with rule of law ("a rules-based system") in the international arena.

Islamic countries are obvious human rights abusers, but denying citizens above poverty level participation in the economy is also an abuse of human rights, abuse which is systematic under international neoliberalism.

Even Trump recognises that poverty is unacceptable....

Absolute nonsense. If Japan and Germany had decided to stay out of vehicle manufacturing, Detroit would have remained the prosperous "motor capital of the world".

 

Again you are not going to get this country to give up it's sovereignty nor convince the citizens to put their liberty and freedoms up to the whims of countries like Syria, China, Russia. Why would you even want to do that? And the SCOTUS has veto power over unconstitutional whims of the legislature and executive branch.

No one does here because of our economic freedom and liberty it's in those countries where the government decides what your economic freedom and liberty will be that they are denied.

Who doesn't? They issue is how to have as little of it as possible without denying the freedom and liberty of the other 90% of the citizens. We saw the failure of the Great Society and the TRILLIONS of taxpayer dollars spent on those programs and they produce no results in fact people on government subsistence rose. However when we get government out of the way of the economy and lower the taxation and lower intrusive regulations we see poverty fall, unemployment fall, wages increase, benefits increase and standard of living increase all the while tax revenues pouring in and deficits not just being lowered but surplus budgets.

Building the worse cars in the world which we consumers would have had to purchase because they would have no reason to create a better product? That is your idea of Utopia?

And BTW 2017
General Motors sold 10 million cars in a year for the first time in its century-plus history.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/02/07/news/companies/gm-record-sales-profits/index.html

GM et all moved out of Detroit for the reasons already discussed which results in a sub-par workforce and higher cost. AND it's the local and state government's job to make their localities attractive for NEW industry and NEW businesses to come in an replace those jobs. We have had a HUGE transformation in the South from textiles, pulp & paper, wood products into YES auto manufacturing, steel, technology and we also build the space vehicles and launch vehicle and airplanes and advance military ships. Pro-business policies that create jobs.

But the first thing a Detroit has to do is deal with it's crime with a strong law enforcement effort. Then and only then can they even think about getting investors back into the area, a program Trump has supported and wants implemented giving federal tax breaks for investments in those areas.

 

I'm stating the Reason-able* position; rule of law requires acceptance of law decided by majority vote of justices in the relevant court. Your comment about the veto powers of the SCOTUS vis a vis the legislature and executive branch is irrelevant in this discussion; we are talking about a veto wielded by each of the justices in the SC itself - a logical impossibility for the rule of law.

*the reptilian brain, driven by blind survival-of-the-organism instincts, has no interest in reason.

Your conflation of liberty with (anarchic) self-interest is merely a manifestation of the power of the reptilian brain.

as in "you are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones...…?"

No - the issue is how to eliminate the outrage of systemic poverty entirely.

No, but the reduction of a prosperous city of 1.8 million to an abandoned wasteland of 700,000? Evidence of the systemic economic failure of international neoliberalism.

Looking beyond only US interests, that's why the world is discussing UBI and MMT, to deal with persistent underemployment, entrenched poverty, and trade tensions. Neoliberalism alone will increasingly fail, as AI, robotics and IT advance.