Wolf Discussion(keep it study based)

saveelk.com feel free to agree or disagree

After trying to find as much information on this as I could on the net, I tend to lean towards the idea that the wolves released could be a different sub-species and a threat to the ecosystem. If they are, they should be exterminated, and a wolf that more closely resembles the wolf from Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming should be re-released.

 

loony website...wolves don't stalk people....same species, the problem here is human hunters upsetting the balance, for hundreds of thousands years wolves and their ancestors have lived in balance with their prey, the difference today is hunters with scoped rifles...

 

I agree with scoped hunters are a huge impact, but I think that human cities taking from their natural habitat is a much bigger factor. So we've already had a huge impact and changed the balance that naturally existed. Then we had quotas to stop hunters from killing all the animals. Then in the last decade or two some of the elk herds are now at 1/3 of what they were originally. If they don't knock the wolf population down soon, elk in those states will have to be protected. There's too much evidence that the introduced wolf is not the same SUB-species, and different enough that is it upsetting the balance between wolf and ungulates. I don't have a problem with how the wolf kills, or that the wolves like to rip a fetus out of a pregnant ungulate, that's a part of nature. I do have a problem that the introduced wolf is 20-30% larger, hunts in much bigger packs, and is much more aggressive than what Lewis and Clark described when they traveled through those areas. It's to the point where elk in Yellowstone now have a smaller migration area than they ever have.

 

edit for above, replace quotas with limits

 

size of wolf doesn't matter the elk are the same and survive elsewhere with those same wolves...hunters with scoped rifles and loss of habitat are the causes of game, wolves are only doing what they've been doing for thousands of years when everything remained in balance, nature controls itself ...when a natural balance is upset then new additions are to blame, disease/new predators/climate change/scoped rifles/habitat loss...

wolves are not aggressive, they avoid people at every opportunity...you're a many million times in more danger of being killed by a domestic dog...

 

If not for wolves, we would have no dogs.

They adopted us into their pack quite nicely.

 

Actually the primary food source for that wolf in Northern Canada is the caribou. Elk, deer, and moose can't run for hours on end like a caribou so they are much easier targets. Here's an example of how the elk aren't surviving like you say they are in Canada.
http://saveelk.com/wolf_015.htm
http://saveelk.com/wolf_073.htm
http://rliv.com/pic/Northern BC Summary.pdf

 

blind hatred plus a minimal knowledge of bio/science...wolves have co-existed with elk/deer/moose/caribou for hundreds of thousands of years with none of the prey going extinct, nature left on it's own remains in balance...if the prey population decreases so does the predator's...when the prey increase in numbers the predators also increase...what screws up the natural balance is environmental change in the case of elk it's loss of habitat and a new introduced species, man...not just man but man with advanced weapons...

 

wolves weren't introduced to Banff, they were returned...from the 1800's to 1930 wolves were slaughtered in the park, elk numbers grew to abnormally large numbers, a number were captured and shipped out...the error of the wolf cull became apparent to biologists and the wolves were reintroduced to restore the natural balance...the problem here as elsewhere wasn't the wolves it was man again...

 

We've been studying wolves for 30 yrs, here's a few that we brought home for intensive studies!

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I'll try again later,,photobucket bad today!

 

It's really hard to find very much information on this anywhere on the internet. Some of the things I have seen are accounts by trappers about the difference of the wolves, maps of north american sub-species of wolves, and write ups by scientists.There is actually a common occurrence that happens to many species, where they increase in size the further they get from the equator. A lot of that website is strong hatred for wolves and very radical. Makes me think it could have been put there by an angry rancher, I'm more concerned than full of hate. I'm not sure there is a great deal of genetic difference in the wolves, I think it's mostly behavioral. http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2011...ain-wolves-v-introduced-canadian-gray-wolves/

http://wallowa.com/news/canadian-wo...le_17de00a2-bb00-11e1-bd7e-001a4bcf887a.html?

Like I said, I want wolves in Idaho and I don't have any problem with them lowering the prey populations, that's normal. What I don't want is them lowering the birth rate below a sustainable level, and me not being able to see any elk in Yellowstone or at my uncle's cabin in the future.

 

Actually if the elk birth rate falls below a certain percentage the herd cannot sustain itself, and that's when they start to vanish entirely from an area. It is kind of a big deal, just like the wolves impact is. There are snakes in Florida, but the Burmese pythons that someone let loose in the wild down there are now threatening many different native species.

I am aware of the positive effects wolves have had, that's why I mentioned it in my original post, and why I want them to be there. I'm also very aware of how ecosystems have balances, didn't we all learn that in 8th grade? I'm sure you all know that there are predator pits, and that species can get out of control like deer are in the Northeastern U.S. http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2009...f-wolf-roamed-the-northern-rockies-years-ago/

 

there's the problem, ranchers creating artificial boundaries for wildlife. The wolves and other predators should be free to expand their hunting range confining them puts more pressure on the prey in the confined area of parks. Ranchers need to accept wolves, cougars bears as part of the cost of doing business. Man has eliminated the free range bison and other native grazers and replaced them with domestic animals, losses from predation should be included in their business plan.

 

The Burmese python comment in my last post is referring to the difference in the sub-species in wolves, and how certain species can be a problem for ecosystem that they do not belong in.

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The Burmese python comment in my last post is referring to the difference in the sub-species in wolves, and how certain species can be a problem for ecosystem that they do not belong in.

 

it's a ridiculous analogy, there is nothing comparable to Burmese python in north america...it's not a sub-species of any indigenous snake, it's a totally alien/invasive specie...that would be like introducing Siberian Tigers and Barbary Lions to Yellowstone,and not wolves...

the elk of Yellowstone are the same specie as those found directly north in the Canadian Rockies (the Rocky Mountain Elk, Cervus canadensis nelsoni), so you would have us believe those big bad Canadian wolves that successfully coexist with the Canadian elk populations but are too ferocious for the same species of elk when they're south of the border?

from wiki-The Rocky Mountain National Park and the Estes Park environments are physically disrupted by the migration of the elk, ranging in size from calves to full grown 700 lbs. adults. Several indigenous butterfly and plant species are harmed, especially the aspen groves that the elk herd of perhaps 3,000 animals decimates in its search for food. The elk population, while taxing the common food resources, also adversely affects native species that share the same food supply such as the indigenous beavers. wolves have their place in the environment in order to sustain a healthy ecosystem...

 

The "Save the Elk" people are supposedly very concerned about the well-being of the poor elk, yet they also really want to kill those elk themselves. Bit of a disconnect there.

Why don't they just tell the truth? They're mad only because wolves are taking a lot of their elk kills. That's the entire issue. They don't give a hoot about the suffering of the elk, wolves spreading diseases, or any of the other justifications they've dreamed up.

 

One cool thing about the re-introduction of wolves to Idaho is that it gave us a new animal to legally hunt. Unfortunately it is a trophy animal, not a food animal, but that is just a trade-off of the situation. Regardless, it is good money for some of my family members who work as guides. There are quite a few hunters who want to bag a wolf, so it added quite a few new customers to their client rolls. You should see the incredibly huge pelts some of these people bring in, they are really quite impressive.

 

http://rmefblog.blogspot.com/2013/03/yellowstone-elk-population-falls.html

Hunting is illegal in Yellowstone Park.

 

bump this thread to the top

 

The way I look at it is that wolves were wide spread before, and there is no reason to deny the reintroduction of wolves in the wild.

Don't like wolves?

Move away from the mountains.

 

I want wolves, have no problem with wolves. I do have a problem if the wrong wolf got introduced into the area, or if the wolves are going to threaten other species. Humans have already permanently changed the landscape of the continent, things aren't going to go back to how they were before, and we need to account for a altered ecosystem.

Way to gloss over any important details relevant to the conversation.

 

Wolves are fine. (I can say that...but of course don't live near them) So are coyotes--which do live near me. My opinion is, that they are fine until they start showing themselves on rancher property looking at the easy prey or around homes. Then you shoot them. Eventually they learn to fear humans and figure out where the boundries are. What I detest is when an animal takes precedent over the safety and livelihood of humans.

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re-introducing an animal where it was eradicated....wolves don't threaten other species, they co-exist as a vital part of that ecosystem they're an apex predator they return it to it's healthy state....it's humans that have altered the balance with recreational hunting not the wolves....

as you have done....