Woman dies after declining cancer treatments to save the life of her unborn child

Junkieturtle said,

You believe that abortion should be legal across the board…for everything if a woman so chooses. So if she wants to end her pregnancy by killing her child at 3 months its ok….at 6 months its ok……at 9 months its ok. You and fellow pro-aborts believe it should be so for numerous different reasons….basically its her body and her decision and its private and no ones business but her own. YOU DO NOT WANT PROTECTION FOR THE UNBORN. How is this pro-life? How is this not pro-choice in every circumstance?
If somehow this question was put on the ballot in November and you have to pull one lever….1#allow abortion or 2# don't allow abortion…which would you pull?

You are pro-abortion in every circumstance. And if you want abortion legal to satisfy all woman's needs and excuses….then you can't possibly be pro-life…you are pro-abortion…EVEN IF YOU ARE A MAN AND COULD NEVER HAVE AN ABORTION, OR EVEN IF YOU WERE A WOMAN AND WOULD NEVER GET ONE YOURSELF.

You want abortion legal period. You want woman to be able to kill on demand. This is pro-choice…not pro-life. What is so hard with admission of this fact? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ABORTION? If so why do you condone it? And if not why not embrace your own position?

So what lever would you pull….1# or 2#?

Viability does not matter, nothing matters when you say its the woman's body, her choice. Any other reason is hypocritical.

I believe in God…and He is an absolute…He is the Truth. I believe the scriptures, absolute, truth. And abortion does not align itself with Gods nature. He loves children and He knew us in the womb. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit…how would then aborting, killing, tearing apart, dismemberment, suction until dead….honor God, honor that new life and our bodies? It does not.

And as I have always said…abortion can be debated without even bringing God into the equation. Science tells us when life starts…and abortion is what it is…it is AN ABSOLUTE. ABORTION MEANS DEATH TO THE LIFE IN THE WOMB. THIS IS A FACT…IT IS THE ABORTIONISTS GOAL. THE LIFE MUST BE DEAD FOR THE ABORTIONIST TO BE DONE. TWO LIVES WALK INTO THE ABORTION MILL (THE MOTHER/CHILD)…..ONLY ONE COMES OUT. THIS IS AN ABSOLUTE IS IT NOT? This is what YOU CONDONE….WHAT YOU WANT LEGAL.

Is your position absolute?

Tell me is rape in some instances ok? Is murder in some instances ok? Is child pornography sometimes ok? Is child abuse sometimes ok?

These are moral issues….which ones are not absolute?

LMAO You say its the woman's body…don't you? You say it is her choice don't you? Then how the heck can you then deny her the right to kill based on YOUR MORALITY? You have already said viability does not matter….whats going on with your heart here? Cant take thinking about a life being killed in the ninth month? But you would think it ok to kill at 23 1/2 weeks when my niece was born. This is why morally, ethically and rationally your position is all over the place and makes no sense. There lies the trick question. If you believe it is the woman's body….YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SAY SHE CAN'T CONTROL IT. Why do you think you have that right? You don't give the unborn rights…you don't' want them protected…so what is going on in your mind?

Well what does the 2nd amendment say?

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
"

Where does it say what we can carry? You say that in order for the unborn to have rights…it should have been spelled out. UNBORNS DESERVE PERSONHOOD AND SHOULD BE INCLUDED IN THE RIGHTS SECTION!!!

But nothing is spelled out here so you want to put restrictions on people cause you think its wrong. LOL The 2nd says….I CAN CARRY ARMS…period.

No restrictions for woman…but restrictions on people who want to carry guns or weapons….or to keep them in their homes.

It means you do not want to abide by the 2nd amendment as written. It means you have a bias and want your morality to rule.

 

I don't think that self defense is murder. It is protection against something that is trying to harm you. WE need police on the streets to protect us do we not? Not all police are honest but I believe most when they have to kill…do it to protect…it is not murder.
I believe that if someone intrudes and breaks in private property, the inhabitants have a right to protect themselves…so if someone is killed…that certainly is not murder.

If someone is on life support…they obviously had something catastrophic happen to their bodies….accidents, heart attacks, aneurysms etc…If someone purposely did something to them that got them in that state…then they are the ones to blame…not the people taking care of them and making the tough decisions regarding their lives. This certainly is NOT murder.


And life support is artificial aid to live. They did not have hundreds of years ago so people died naturally. Taking someone off life support is not murder it is allowing them to live or die according to what God wants.

 

I would pull level #1 as you well know. I would never vote for a an option that took the choice away from the mother. But, in your typical fashion, you've painted it as an either/or question. All or nothing. My dear, life rarely works that way. If you're going to accuse every person who takes a middle of the road approach to something as being a hypocrite, well then I suppose that hypocrites are the majority not only in this country, but in the world. Most people do not advocate extremes to any end of whatever spectrum of morality, politics, etc that we are talking about. You know who does? Extremists, fanatics, fundamentalists, people with mindsets like those who crashed planes into the World Trade Center.

When have I ever run away from my position? It's been solid and unchanging for years now, long before I ever wrote a word on this forum. You constantly try to point out holes, or to tell me that because I'm not 100% for, or 100% against, that I'm a hypocrite. As I said, most people do not think in absolutes like you do. You can attribute that to God, or bread, or whatever, it doesn't matter. The only people who live in a black and white world are those for whom complex situations where there is no clear cut answer are anathema. I am sorry that you cannot handle life without reducing it into simple all encompassing soundbites, but your inability, or refusal, to do so doesn't actually change life, it just changes you.

Biology tells you when life begins, not when a person begins. That is why this debate continues. There is no "right" answer in the factual objective sense. It's all about feelings and emotions. That is why lifers refer to it as a baby, even when it is a microscopic fertilized embryo possessing NONE of the qualities of a baby. Choicers approach this from an objective position, in that it's the mother's choice in what the outcome is because it's her body. We don't try to guess at the feeling and emotions because those are completely subjective and completely unique to each individual. We don't try to make decisions for other people based upon our own completely fallible and subjective feelings.

I believe that goes back to your absolutist take on things. For you, there seems to be no room for individualistic thinking. Your thoughts apply to everyone, no matter their situation. That's hubris if I've ever seen it.

It has nothing to do with my morality. I support a cut-off date because it's a compromise. I am not losing any sleep over late-term abortion, and if it did come down to an absolutist choice as you would like it to be, I would side with the pro-choice position, as I'm sure you're well aware. But, as I've said before, we live in a democracy, filled with people of all kinds of different mindsets. No one ideology should get to rule at all times, there needs to be compromises, some give-and-take. That's how people get along together. They don't get along when one group wants to dictate to everyone else what is and is not right, something you and those like you would seem to relish.

I personally don't have any trouble if a woman chooses to abort a pregnancy at any point in the timeline. I support a woman's right to do so. But at the same time, I think that IF a woman is going to have an abortion, she probably ought to do it earlier than the 9th month, assuming she's not choosing abortion because of new information on birth defects or some other extenuating previously unknown circumstance. But, that's just my personal take. It has no bearing on anyone else but me. I'm not conceited enough to think that what I would do in a situation should be what everyone else must do as well.

Well, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Yes I believe in restrictions on the 2nd amendment because they make practical sense. I don't want nutjobs, or people who've used a weapon to commit a crime, or children, to have legal access to weapons. Do you? Seriously?

 

Sure there are acceptable circumstances. This is not what the other poster was talking about.

 

How do you determine if God wants you to take your child, spouse or other relative off of life support? Or does God not like life support since it is interfering with that person's death already? What does God have to say about life support? Is it in the same chapter where he talks about whether or not he supports abortion?

 

So now it is acceptable to take human life in certain circumstances? Because you made a very declarative statement that the right to life is GOD GIVEN and we have NO RIGHT to take it away!

 

We don't. The only person responsible for you, is yourself. That's why a living will is a good idea.

 

How do you expect children to make a living will for themselves, because guess what, some children are put on life support and sometimes their parents decide to take them off of it. But how are the parents supposed to know that is what the child wanted when they didn't have a living will?

 

I am certain it is an extremely painful and difficult decision for those parents.

 

They can't make a living will. If God wants that child to live…it does not matter if it is on life support or not. If you leave it into Gods hands…then it does not matter whether they are on or off life support.

 

What does this even mean? As far as I have seen God has not intervened with humans since Biblical times and even that is questionable. So please, elaborate.

 

With God all things are possible. I believe God can do whatever He wants. Miracles can happen. And how do you know that God has never intervened since Biblical times? Are you even a believer?

 

Nope I am not. I stopped believing in Christianity when people I thought loved me used that religion to emotionally and mentally abuse me. =)

 

In Christianity…wow, you mean Christ, right? Being a Christian is having a personal relationship with Christ and nothing else. It was not Christs fault that people deceived you…you are unfairly blaming Christ for the sinful nature of the people who did this to you…and the actions they did.

That is an excuse. If you loved Him and accepted Him and the Holy Spirit came upon you…you would have never left HIm. Scriptures talk about people who abuse people…and they tell us what to do when we are faced with situations such as yours.

I know people who have been raped and shot and almost murdered…and they still love the Lord…and give it all to HIM.

 

Yes well I eventually became enlightened by the cult behavior of Christianity and realized it was all nothing more than a weapon to control people and so I left the religion entirely. But that is getting off topic and that's a discussion for another forum entirely.

 

Cult…..? Like the cult life of a pro-choicer who thinks dismembering unborn children is acceptable behavior? You obviously never had it to begin with….Christ that is.

 

Yes I know. I was probably evil as a child too in your opinion, not truly believing in Jesus or anything.

 

You said it I didn't.

 

Do you think I was an evil child? I'll give you a little background to help you determine if I was or not. I used to play pretend and loved riding my bike and drawing pictures. I'd play Barbies and Legos with my little brother. I used to pray to God every single night before bed after story time with my mom and I would ask him to bless all my family and I would do that typical kid thing, "Bless mommy and daddy and bless my brother and bless my grandma and grandpa and my dog Sparky and my hamster Pepper..."

So, does that sound evil to you?

 

So in your opinion it is when it learns certain things. Going by your logic then you would also believe in killing infants even after they were outside of the womb. So a child before it is able to read maybe we should be able to kill them?, this is simply another aspect of development also. Some severly disabled people appear to not have full function in this way either and some appear to feel no pain. Do you believe then people should be permitted to kill them also.

At the moment of conception there is a new living life. It is logical to assume it is human life, because that is what it is.

 

So when you debate with someone and you get a difficult argument against you, you simply refuse to debate it or answer the argument.

 

Gee I don't know where you? You are the one who said this…."I was probably evil as a child too in your opinion, not truly believing in Jesus or anything." I didn't say anything of the sort…you did.

I don't think children are evil necessarily although they are sinners when they can tell right from wrong..but certainly some turn into evil adults…who hold evil positions. I think being pro-choice is evil…I think your position is evil. WEll you did typical kid stuff…but God knows what is in the heart…so I can't judge your heart only He can. I do know that Bundy…and Scott Peterson probably did the same stuff you did…and what happened?
I said my prayers…I played outside…raked leaves….rode my bike…played with Barbies…and I GOT AN ABORTION. People do evil things…no one knows what better than I do.

So because you did those things means nothing really in the grand scheme of things. Your position now does matter and you are pro-abortion.

 

You do not even want to know what this guy thinks…believe me..that is why he is the only person I ever in 12 years put on ignore. His views are sick and deranged. He does not value life…any life.

 

The only reason I brought this up is because you completely scoffed at the idea that I was once a true believer and follower of Jesus Christ and the Christian religion, and I quote

I just get so tired of other Christians pulling the No True Scottsman Fallacy out of their butts whenever someone says they used to be a Christian. When I was younger I genuinely believed God was real and never had a second thought about it. In fact I thought EVERYONE believed in God and it wasn't even until I started school and had one Jewish kid in my class around Christmas time when I realized Christianity was not the only religion.

 

Pasithea said,

I believe that once saved always saved….IF that person had the Holy Spirit dwell in them. I can't judge your heart…only your words and action…so no one actually knows but God. And He is the only one that makes a difference in the end.
I think most people who call themselves Christian who sit in church every Sunday…are not truly a disciple of Christ…they don't hold a Christian worldview. I only think one sin keeps you from spending eternity with Christ…and that is denial of HIm…
A believer makes all decisions based on the Word and what God says. Take Obama for example. He claims to be a Christian but does not live like one. His philosophy, his beliefs do not align with the Word. He now believes in same sex marriage which is totally unbiblical as is abortion. God spanks those who are disobedient….as a FAther disciplines his children. And all believers get spanked…some harder than others because they resist doing what is right…putting their opinions and beliefs first before God.

Something happens in a believers life if they stray. They let Satan get a foothold on their lives and they yield to the world. The Christian life is hard…because look what we are up against….people like you who now make pot shots and mock God. Did you ever have the Holy Spirit….I can't be sure but I am not important…what you say and do is to God however.

Doubt does come into my mind however when people claim they were true believers…..and then all of a sudden they aren't.

But what did you think about Christ and how did He fit in? Did you know the gospel? You can't accept Christ without knowing the gospel. Believing in God is not enough…Believing Christ and who HE SAID HE WAS…is what is important. My inlaws are Jewish. They never went to Temple… While I know there are a lot of other religions…and I respect people who believe them…I believe they are false, that Christ is the truth the Only Way.