Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Greatest I am · Aug 24, 2020

Jolly Penguin said: ↑

It always reminded me of an abusive husband (god) and wife who continues to stay with him because they are in "love".
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I hear you.

Stockholm Syndrome at work.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am · Aug 24, 2020

Jolly Penguin said: ↑

Think of it more like having gone through a bankruptcy. You no longer have the debt, because others suffered it for you, but you still have a history of having incurred it.
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Abdicating ones responsibility for ones actions, is a component of the immorality, --- of both the taker as well as the giver, --- to the agreement shared.

Satan would ask for that and not a good man, Jesus or god.

Regards
DL

gabmux · Aug 24, 2020

cirdellin said: ↑

Paul told us that faith is the evidence of things not seen. What the hell is that supposed to mean if not shut up I explained already and how dare you question God’s purpose as we explained to you (or Allah’s word for that matter)?
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Lol. Wow...never seen that interpretation of Paul before....quite creative of you.

Greatest I am · Aug 24, 2020

Amendment.

It's entertainment. Place coins here.

A fool and his thirst for drama/myths.

Regards
DL

cirdellin · Aug 24, 2020

gabmux said: ↑

Lol. Wow...never seen that interpretation of Paul before....quite creative of you.
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Faith is the evidence of things not seen is simply a way of saying don’t question things because you’ve found the one true church.
This coming from Paul who made a career as a serial murderer of Christians before making up his story about meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus corroborated by no one.
The very inspiration for Joseph Smith in the long line of Christian grifters.

gabmux · Aug 24, 2020

cirdellin said: ↑

Faith is the evidence of things not seen is simply a way of saying don’t question things because you’ve found the one true church.
This coming from Paul who made a career as a serial murderer of Christians before making up his story about meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus corroborated by no one.
The very inspiration for Joseph Smith in the long line of Christian grifters.
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Or...what if it means this...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

What if "Faith is the evidence of things not seen" simply refers to
faith in "things" that are beyond your comprehension. And as such,
there exists no words to describe it..... It is beyond words.

That's precisely the point at which the ego slips in and says.....
"Are you suggesting that "I" do not understand something?
"How dare you?"

cirdellin · Aug 24, 2020

gabmux said: ↑

Or...what if it means this...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

What if "Faith is the evidence of things not seen" simply refers to
faith in "things" that are beyond your comprehension. And as such,
there exists no words to describe it.
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“A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.“

Friedrich Nietzsche

gabmux · Aug 24, 2020

cirdellin said: ↑

“A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.“

Friedrich Nietzsche
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Lol...okay. Have it your own way.

The Amazing Sam's Ego · Nov 13, 2020

Greatest I am said: ↑

Would Jesus promote punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?

Christians seem to think that Jesus took the punishment for sinners with his sacrifice/suicide on the cross. IOW, Christians see Jesus as asking Christians to abdicate their responsibility for their own sins and punishments.

If humans asked that, it would be considered quite immoral and unjust. All courts try hard to punish the guilty and not the innocent.

These quotes are what I think Jesus would have taught on this issue, him being a Jewish Rabbi.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments, yet Christians are doing just that in trying to use Jesus as their scapegoat.

Regards
DL
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https://www.gotquestions.org/born-in-sin.html

If we are born in sin, how is it fair for God to judge us for our sin?

Question: "If we are born in sin, how is it fair for God to judge us for our sin?"

Answer: A common accusation against Christianity is that it unfairly judges people. In particular, some people say that God sets us up for failure and then punishes us for the failure that He caused. If that were true, it would indeed be an unfair situation. Is that the way Christianity works? Does God unfairly judge us for something we have no control over? The answers are found in the Bible.

To begin, we must find out what the Bible says about our being born in sin. David, the man after God’s own heart, wrote in Psalm 51:5, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” The apostle Paul wrote that we all gratify “the cravings of our sinful nature” (Ephesians 2:3). That means there is something naturally inside us that pushes us toward sin.

So, the Bible certainly does teach that we are born in sin. Did God just arbitrarily decide people were going to be born sinful? The answer is found in connection with the first man, Adam. When Adam was created (without sin) by God and placed in the garden of Eden, he was also given a simple law (Genesis 2:16–17). Adam disobeyed God’s law, and God pronounced him guilty and sentenced him to death. It was Adam’s choice to disobey that made him guilty before God. He was the father of the human race, and his traits were passed on to his children. Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world through Adam, and death came through sin, because all sinned. As descendants of Adam, we received the sin nature passed down from our fathers. That makes us born in sin, with a natural inclination to do wrong.

Some might argue that we cannot choose our family, so God cannot hold us accountable for the sin nature. While we might not have any choice about how we’re born, the Bible is clear that we do have a choice about our sins. Earlier, we looked at Ephesians 2:3, which says that we gratify the cravings of our sinful nature. That is a choice. Romans 5:12 says that “all sinned.” We are sinners by deed as well as by nature. Our own sin condemns us, not just Adam’s. We are born in sin, but we continue to sin by our own personal choice. When we choose sin, we become guilty before God, and His judgment is fair.

God is not only fair, but merciful. The Bible’s teaching about personal sin doesn’t end with a declaration of man’s guilt. Romans 5, which tells us that sin and death entered the world through one man, also tells us of the greatest blessing, which also came through one man. God’s gift of grace came through Jesus Christ (Romans 5:15) and overflowed to many. Verse 19 says, “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” God is just in applying Adam’s sin to the entire human race, and He is just in applying Jesus Christ’s death to all who will receive Him by faith. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, so that the world might have life through faith in His sacrifice. That’s not “fair”—that’s grace!

Recommended Resource: Basic Theology by Charles Ryrie
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Greatest I am · Nov 13, 2020

The Amazing Sam's Ego said: ↑

https://www.gotquestions.org/born-in-sin.html
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Thanks for sharing your words.

If born in gods image, and god is a sinner, then we are following scriptures.

That is why Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

We are truly children of god, as Jesus said.

Many see the genocidal Yahweh as an a hole, but he would not punish his good sons while allowing the evil one a pass.

You nor I would do that, --- and a god, --- being more moral than you or I, would be even less likely to chose otherwise. Right?

If you are not sure, ask your children. From the mouths of babes and all that.

Regards
DL

The Amazing Sam's Ego · Nov 14, 2020

Greatest I am said: ↑

Thanks for sharing your words.

If born in gods image, and god is a sinner, then we are following scriptures.

That is why Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

We are truly children of god, as Jesus said.

Many see the genocidal Yahweh as an a hole, but he would not punish his good sons while allowing the evil one a pass.

You nor I would do that, --- and a god, --- being more moral than you or I, would be even less likely to chose otherwise. Right?

If you are not sure, ask your children. From the mouths of babes and all that.

Regards
DL
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https://reasonsforjesus.com/jesus-vs-buddha-9-major-differences/

Jesus Vs Buddha: 9 Major Differences
By
James Bishop
-
October 29, 2016
66140

By James Bishop| Jesus is often compared with Buddha, and parallels are attempted to be made between the morality of both of these people. But not only are their teachings vastly different, in this article we will explore nine major differences between these two spiritual figures that put Jesus in a league of his own.

1. The purpose and meaning of their lives
In 1960 a theologian by the name of Paul Tillich visited Japan, and in conversation with some Buddhist scholars, he asked that: “If some historian should make it probable that a man of the name Gautama never lived, what would be the consequence for Buddhism?”

These Buddhist scholars responded by saying that the question of the historicity of Gautama Buddha has never been an issue for Buddhism: “According to the doctrine of Buddhism, the dharma kaya [the body of truth] is eternal, and so it does not depend upon the historicity of Gautama” (1).

So, whether Gautama actually lived as a historical person, or if he never said and did what is recorded of him saying and doing, it has no baring on Buddhism itself.

The historicity of Jesus is intrinsic to the Christian faith; without Jesus there is no Christianity. The apostle Paul in one of his epistles emphasized this. In his letter to the Corinthians he states that if Jesus was not raised from the dead then the Christian faith is futile and useless, and we are still in our sins (1 Corinthians 15:14–19).

The very pinnacle, the very center point of Christianity is Jesus’ atoning death on the cross for the salvation of mankind, and this of course means that Jesus had to be a historical figure that actually died on a cross, and was resurrected. Take Jesus out of the equation then the Christian faith goes with it.

2. Their historicity

The sources we have for the historical Jesus far surpasses that of what we have for Buddha in its earliness and abundance. To that end we can sketch a more reliable portrait of the Jesus of history. For Jesus we have numerous sources to go on, namely the biographical Gospels, the Pauline epistles, non-Pauline epistles, and the general epistles. That amounts to +- 12 authors who had authored some 27 books within 60 years of Jesus’ life.

Our early apostolic church fathers as well as others further corroborate Jesus’ historicity and the events in his life independently, such being the likes of the historians Josephus Flavius and Cornelius Tacitus. Furthermore, the earliest New Testament writings were written about 50 or 51 AD (Pauline epistle’s) that only leaves a gap of 17 to 21 years from the time of Jesus’ death to the first writings. The latest book, Revelation, comes in at no later than 60 – 65 years of Jesus’ death. But what do we have for the Buddha?

For him we rely on information from sources far removed from his existence, and this is a reason why there is much uncertainty surrounding his life. The earliest Buddhist scriptures come to us around the end of the 1st century BC (Buddha lived either from 566–486 BC or 448–368 BC), and the Buddhacarita (The Acts of the Buddha which is an epic poem written by Aśvaghoṣa) was written around the 2nd century AD.

Either way the earliest source comes 300 to 400 years after his life. Following the Buddhacarita we have the Lalitavistara Sūtra, Mahāvastu, and the Nidānakathā all of which come in 100 year increments. Other sources would include the Jātakas, the Mahapadana Sutta, and the Achariyabhuta Sutta, and they house accounts that may be earlier than the biographies, but which are still late and not exhaustive on giving us historical information on the Buddha.

From this we can be historically sure of what the earliest followers of Jesus thought of him as such a short time span between the real life events of Jesus’ ministry and the time at which the Pauline epistles and Gospel accounts were penned is just too short for unhistorical elements to embellish the historical core.

On that note such cannot be said for the Buddha since centuries elapsed before our first written texts appear.

3. Their self-concept

Buddha insisted that he was not divine, and that his problem with life was suffering of people and even animals. He taught that in order to eliminate suffering from one’s life, one had to let go of desire, and in turn live a life of moderation and self control. Some time after one would reach a state of happiness and bliss (known as Nirvana) where you will no longer be reborn into a life of suffering.

Jesus, on the other hand, claimed to be equal with God, and his mission was to come and save his people by getting them to repent of their sins, and to turn to him as the only means of salvation. A major aspect of his ministry was on the emphasis of evil. Jesus’ solution is to repent, love God and other humans, believe on him as the Saviour through faith, as well as to keep the Ten Commandments.

Jesus claimed to be the only path to God. Buddha did not.

4. Their concept of God
The Buddha rejected the existence of God, and said that that was irrelevant to the notion of suffering (2). According to one scholar of Buddhism if by “God” we mean a Creator God then:

“…the Buddha is an atheist and Buddhism in both its Theravada and Mahayana forms is atheistic…In denying that the universe is a product of a Personal God, who creates it in time and plans a consummation at the end of time, Buddhism is a form of atheism” (3).

The Buddha made no claim to special inspiration or revelation from any divine source. On the other hand Jesus was a monotheist (he believed in one God), and accepted the Old Testament understanding as authoritative. He also claimed equal status with the one true God, and convinced many via his miracle working, his authority via his teachings, and most noticeably in his resurrection from the dead. To this end the Buddha and Jesus are quite different.

5. Their miracle working

Jesus’ miracles are multiply and independently attested. They are also very early, and we find them in Q, L (special material for Luke), M (special material for Matthew), Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, and Paul’s epistles. The “Signs Gospel” preceding John also contains several miracle narratives, and the Jewish-Roman historian Josephus Flavius affirmed that Jesus was known for his wonders.

Jesus was known to be a miracle worker by followers, foes and the surrounding people in villages. As one prominent New Testament historian comments: “Whatever you think about the philosophical possibility of miracles of healing, it’s clear that Jesus was widely reputed to have done them” (4).

This leads me to suggest that on historical grounds (particularly due to their extreme earliness of reporting, and multiple attestation) that Jesus really was a miracle worker. The only possible negation is that Jesus was some fraud of immense genius to fool thousands of people, his critics, and his followers whom suffered and died for him.

However, such a possibility of Jesus being a fraud can be dismissed, for the reasons above, and because he went to his gory, bloody, and excruciating painful death by crucifixion as a result of his self-proclamation and ministry. Jesus, with great historical certainty, really did perform wonders of healing and exorcisms. That is indisputable on historical grounds and is widely supported by modern scholarship.

As Borg explains:

“Despite the difficulty which miracles pose for the modern mind, on historical grounds it is virtually indisputable that Jesus was a healer and exorcist” (5).

How does the Buddha fare with regards to miracles? The Buddha once responded to a request for miracles by saying, “I dislike, reject and despise them,” and then refused to comply with the request (6). When he was a baby anywhere he placed his feet a lotus flower blossomed (7).

At another time he allegedly performed the twin miracle whereby he produced flames from the upper part of his body and streams of water from the lower part of his body. After this he took three giant steps and arrived in Tavatimsa. When he was there the Buddha preached the Abhidharma to his mother who had been reborn there as a Deva named Santussita.

There are also other miracle accounts that are alleged to have happened such as his ability to multiply into a million and then return to normal, he could travel through space, he could make himself as big as a giant and then as small as an ant.

However, the miracle accounts surrounding the Buddha are late developments, hence probably unhistorical since our earliest Buddhist texts, the Pali Canon, comes 450 years after his life, and this time gap allows ample time for non-historical embellishments to mar the historical core.

Some of the miracles ascribed to him seem obviously mythological such as his ability to shape shift to different sizes, walk through mountains, and use telepathy and divine seeing. These don’t seem historical, or on par as a meaningful act of God. They seem akin to the mythological embellishments found in the late Gnostic texts of Jesus making birds out of clay, cursing his playmates of whom subsequently die, and some parents he curses of whom then become blind.

Due to their earliness, abundance and multiple attestation the miracles of Jesus in the Gospel accounts surpass those ascribed to the Buddha.

6. Their Answer to the Human Predicament

The Buddha taught one to eliminate suffering by getting rid of their desire, in other words one needed to suppress their desires. However, Jesus came into the world to allegedly bridge the chasm that sin caused between God and man. So, the Buddha taught a philosophy and the other came as our saviour (and brought a philosophy along). Ravi Zacharias, an Indian man who converted to Christianity when he was still young, compares the God of the Bible to the Buddha:

“It does not seem accidental that the night Gautama Buddha left his palace to pursue an answer to pain and suffering was the very night his wife was giving birth to their son. In his quest to eliminate suffering, he actually walked out and left his wife alone in the throes of her pain. Contrast this with the God of the Bible, who came into this world Himself in the person of His Son to suffer on the cross, to embrace pain and suffering for the sake of humanity. Buddha walked away from his son and from pain. In Christianity, God is part and parcel of the solution” (.

According to Jesus the problem intrinsic to mankind is more significant than just the suppression of desires, as the Buddha taught. For Jesus it is sin that is at the center of the human predicament particularly because sin is the deliberate rejection of God’s righteous ways.
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Greatest I am · Nov 14, 2020

Thanks for the dialog.

Regards
DL

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