The U.S.S. Liberty Must Not Be Forgotten

I am aware of the circumstances.

 

Because there was nothing mistaken about Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty.

"At approximately 0600 hours (all times local) on the morning of June 8, 1967 an Israeli maritime reconnaissance aircraft observer reported seeing "a US Navy cargo type ship," just outside the coverage of the Israeli coastal radar defense net, bearing the hull markings "GTR-5".[11] This report, made to Israeli naval HQ, was also forwarded immediately to the Israeli navy intelligence directorate.[12]

"Throughout the remainder of the day prior to the attack, Israeli reconnaissance aircraft regularly flew out to USS Liberty's position and orbited the ship before returning to their bases in Israel. A total of no fewer than eight ( such flights were made.[13]

At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Jane's Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship."

http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm

 

I agree! The CIA owes America an apology!

The Liberty, similar to the Pueblo & North Korea were

victims of the American CIA taking an American Naval ship,
as is their power - and use it for "intelligence" purposes without regard
for the lives of the sailors on board.

My uncle was with one if those occurrences when Ike had a Battleship, my uncle's,
go to the coast of "Red China" and start firing large shells, to measure the Chinese response.
The Navy wives went to the press and the mission was stopped at sea!

The Liberty was an American failure,
not an Israeli failure, fershur
besides America was not Israel's ally and observed the Arab boycott 1967​

Moi

r > g

No ​

 

Do you know how many of those ships operated in the Med in that time period?

The "VC2 US Navy Cargo Ship" is the classification name that is most commonly known as the "Victory Ship". 534 ships of this class were built between 1943 and 1945. And after the end of the war, around 200 of them were sold to civilian merchant companies. In fact, the shipping empire of Aristotle Onassis was largely based upon his purchases of surplus Liberty and Victory ships and using them for shipping in that very region of the world.

So in 1967 seeing a "VC2 US Navy Cargo Ship" could mean absolutely anything. There were dozens of them in that region of the world, moving everything from wheat and rice and engine parts, to bulk cargo, mail packet runs and weapons deliveries.

I suggest next time you try to make such a statement, you try to actually learn and understand what you are saying. The pilot reported seeing a "Victory Ship", of which well over 100 were sold to foreign companies after WWII. So it literally could have been owned by anybody.

It is not like this was a class of ship that was only being used by the US Navy (in fact, at that time there were far more in use by civilian companies then were even used by the US Navy itself, they only had a handfull ever).

And in fact, the "US Navy" itself never really used the Victory or Liberty ships. That was the Merchant Marine. The Navy I think at most only had control of a dozen of the 534 ships built in this class.

So forgive me if I outright consider your claim here a lie. "A US Navy cargo type ship", when such ships were never part of the US Navy to begin with? It was the Maritime Commission that designed these ships and ordered them to be built, not the US Navy.

Remember the Pueblo!

And the SS Mayaguez.

How many are aware that the SS Mayaguez was a Pre-WWII class Merchant Marine ship of the C2 class, of which 173 were built for the US? And after the war they were all sold off to civilian merchant companies or scrapped, other then the 8 lost during WWII?

 

Did you miss this part?
"Throughout the remainder of the day prior to the attack, Israeli reconnaissance aircraft regularly flew out to USS Liberty's position and orbited the ship before returning to their bases in Israel. A total of no fewer than eight ( such flights were made.[13]

At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Jane's Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship."
http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm

Every surviving member of Liberty's crew believes Israel's attack was deliberate.
What makes you know better?
"After more than two hours of unremitting assault, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. This same torpedo boat crew had been circling the ship, machine-gunning anyone who stuck his head above decks, as well as the lifeboats the crew had put over the side.

"What had changed? The Israeli government knew that US aircraft carriers had just launched aircraft to come to Liberty's aid and the attack was quickly called off. The Israeli government called the US Embassy and said that they had made a 'mistake.'

"A torpedo boat officer asked in English over a bullhorn: 'Do you need any help?'

"The wounded commander of the Liberty, Captain William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: '(*)(*)(*)(*) you.'"

http://www.gtr5.com/quotes.htm

 

I think claiming the torpedo boats "machine gunned people" aboard the Liberty is an inflammatory statement.

No one was killed aboard the Liberty by the torpedo boats aside from the initial single torpedo hit. The torpedo boats did exchange gun fire with the Liberty as one of the sailors manning one of the four machine gun mounts had not gotten the captains order not to fire and did fire on the torpedo boats while the ammo from another machine gun began cooking off.

At any rate, there is ZERO evidence that the aircraft and torpedo boats that attacked the Liberty had knowledge of the ship being American. The information about the identity of the ship was hours old by the time of the attack and no longer considered reliable.

And finally, not a single reasonable motive for the attack has ever been suggested.

 

Thank you for the reminder of the Mayaguez,

another CIA operation, similar to the Pueblo and Liberty - involving involuntary targets during peace time.

No American should be so involuntarily placed by the CIA. Military or otherwise.
It was not the fault of the USN that these ships were attacked.


Moi

Please see story above ref. my uncle's battleship ordered to singlehandedly
start firing on the Chinese mainland
http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=412334&page=3&p=1065236987#post1065236987​

r > g

View attachment 36771 ​

 

If any "reasonable motive" exists for Israel's deliberate attack on the USS Liberty, a full public investigation into the assault would have to be conducted BEFORE all surviving eyewitnesses die of old age in order to establish what that motive was.

Your claim "there is ZERO evidence that the aircraft and torpedo boats that attacked the Liberty had knowledge of the ship being American", is disputed by former USAF intelligence analyst Stephen
Forslund and many others who were listening in during that criminal act:

"There were other intercepts, and I and many others like me, read transcripts of the air-to-air and air-to-ground communications of the fighters who attacked the USS Liberty.

"We read these in real time during the day the attack occurred.

"These intercepts were preceded by many others we read that week that started with the opening attack by Israel in the war and included intercepts of messages between the USA and Israel in which our government stated their knowledge of the Israeli's pre-emptive attack that began the war and warned Israel to cease their activities.

"On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA.

"The teletypes were raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller. I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on.

"The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was identified as American numerous times by the ground controller.

"Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying.

"There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs.

"The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating. The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally."

http://ussliberty.org/forslund.htm

 

I've read other accounts that intercepts showed ground control was actually worried.

That the Liberty might've been a Soviet ship instead of an Egyptian one as believed.

As for the flag, the flag the Liberty was initially flying was destroyed in the initial strafing attack. Conducted by aircraft which HAD NOT overflown the Liberty prior to their high speed strafing run.

The second flag the Liberty raised was very large and heavy, never unfurled properly, and was also heavily obscured by the smoke from fires caused by the napalm bombing (also carried out in the initial attack).

Once again, without a motive, there is no reason to believe that the Israelis believed the Liberty was an American ship when they attacked.

In particular there is massive obvious evidence that the attack was a hastily thrown together affair from an Israeli command which did not realize the Liberty was still in the area and panicked when they thought a possible shelling of the coast had occurred from a previously undetected Egyptian ship (it was actually an ammo dump blowing up).

1) The weapons used by the aircraft. Neither their onboard cannons, nor Napalm canisters were weapons that would be recommended for sinking any kind of sea going vessel.

A single 2,000 lb. general purpose bomb could've blown Liberty in half and sent it and its crew to the bottom without them having the opportunity to send any kind of distress call or message. It would be a mystery. Israel could've just blamed Egypt and no one would've been the wiser.

2) The tentative attack by the torpedo boats. They fired a spread of torpedoes at maximum range. Which is why only one of the torpedoes hit (though that one did the bulk of the damage and caused most of the deaths).

The torpedo boats did not fire a second round of torpedoes. Which certainly would've destroyed the Liberty. Instead they closed in as though they were curious about the IDENTITY of the ship. Fired some machine guns when the Liberty fired on them, then withdrew immediately once they had positive confirmation of the Liberty's nationality.

People who believe in some Israeli conspiracy to attack (and presumably destroy) the Liberty would have you believe that the same military that was in the process of executing one of the boldest and most successful attacks of the 20th century carried out a half hazard, clumsy, half assed attack on the Liberty.

 

Why do you think every surviving Liberty crew member believes the Israeli attack was deliberate?
"At about the same time as the cessation of the torpedo boat attack, Israeli attack helicopters arrived over the ship.[32] Survivors report that the helicopters were packed with men in combat battle dress. The Captain of USS Liberty gave the order to "prepare to repel boarders"[33] but the helicopters departed without attempting to land their troops."
There was nothing half-assed or clumsy about Israel's attack; it was called off only after Liberty succeeded in sending a distress call to the Sixth Fleet.
http://www.gtr5.com/summary_of_events.htm

 

Yea, and that is exactly why this thread belongs down here, where the claims are worthless.

The SS Mayaguez was a civilian transport ship, owned by the Sea-Land Service corporation. It was traveling it's normal cargo route, Hong Kong – Sattahip, Thailand – Singapore when it was captured by Cambodia in International sea lanes.

Yea, so I guess the CIA controls every civilian cargo ship at sea as well.

 

No not every cargo ship.
Just the ones where they should not be

 

I've NEVER heard that EVERY surviving member of the Liberty crew thought the attack was deliberate. And note, that the vast majority of the Liberty crew did survive.

Until you said it I've never seen anything in any report about Israeli soldiers in battle dress aboard helicopters over the Liberty.

And far from repelling borders the Captain of the Liberty (who was awarded the Medal of Honor) specifically ordered his crew to stand down and offer no resistance when the ship was attacked.

Once again, a single 2,000 lb. bomb (which Israel had plenty of) could've destroyed the Liberty and all hands in a single, quick attack. Instead the Israelis came in with poorly armed aircraft and torpedo boats in an attack that was in no way even coordinated.

And your "source" is from an advocacy site. Come up with something without biases.

 

My source is eyewitness testimony.
What's yours, hasbara?

"At approximately 1050 hours, the naval observer from the early morning reconnaissance flight arrived at Israeli air force HQ and sat down with the air-naval liaison officer there. The two officers consulted Jane's Fighting Ships and learned that the ship reported earlier in the day was USS Liberty, a United States Navy technical research ship.[14]

"From 0900 hours on June 8, 1967, until the time of the attack five hours later, USS Liberty maintained a speed of approximately five knots and a generally westerly-northwesterly course.[15]

"At 1400 hours, while approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast, USS Liberty's crew observed three surface radar contacts closing with their position at high speed. A few moments later, the bridge radar crew observed high speed aircraft passing over the surface returns on the same heading.[16]

"Within a few short moments, and without any warning, Israeli fighter aircraft launched a rocket attack on USS Liberty.

"The aircraft made repeated firing passes, attacking USS Liberty with rockets and their internal cannons. After the first flight of fighter aircraft had exhausted their ordnance, subsequent flights of Israeli fighter aircraft continued to prosecute the attack with rockets, cannon fire, and napalm. [17]

"During the air attack, USS Liberty's crew had difficulty contacting Sixth Fleet to request assistance due to intense communications jamming[18]

"The initial targets on the ship were the command bridge, communications antennas, and the four .50 caliber machine guns, placed on the ship to repel boarders.[19]

"After the Israeli fighter aircraft completed their attacks, three Israeli torpedo boats arrived and began a surface attack about 35 minutes after the start of the air attack. The torpedo boats launched a total of five torpedoes, one of which struck the side of USS Liberty, opposite the ship's research spaces. [20] Twenty-six Americans in addition to the eight who had been killed in the earlier air attacks, were killed as a result of this explosion.

"Following their torpedo attack, the torpedo boats moved up and down the length of the ship (both the port and starboard sides), continuing their attack, raking the ship with cannon and machine gun fire.[21]

"In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man's hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to 'thousands' of .50 caliber machine gun holes."

http://www.gtr5.com/contact.htm

 

I've never heard of Stephen Forslund in any previous account of the attack on the Liberty.

Why would Forslund ever have any access to the transcripts in question?

Why would the Israelis give him and others access to those transcripts?

Unless the transcripts have been seen, verified, and reviewed by a neutral source then they can't be considered evidenciary.

If 200 witnesses all agree on one thing then something is seriously wrong because that NEVER happens. Chances are they are reciting a single simple narrative.

 

A simple narrative that happens to be true in this case

"The transcript published by the Jerusalem Post bore scant resemblance to the one that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine behind the sealed vault door at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, where Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force.

"'The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it,' Forslund recalled. 'The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.'

"'The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors.'

"Forslund said he clearly recalled 'the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely.'

"'He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink.'

"Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. 'Everybody saw these,' said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

"Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

"One is James Gotcher..."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html#page=3

Can you suggest any plausible explanation for why every single surviving member of Liberty's crew believes the Israeli assault was deliberate unless they are telling the simple truth?

- - - Updated - - -

A simple narrative that happens to be true in this case

"The transcript published by the Jerusalem Post bore scant resemblance to the one that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine behind the sealed vault door at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, where Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force.

"'The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it,' Forslund recalled. 'The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.'

"'The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors.'

"Forslund said he clearly recalled 'the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely.'

"'He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink.'

"Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. 'Everybody saw these,' said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

"Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

"One is James Gotcher..."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html#page=3

Can you suggest any plausible explanation for why every single surviving member of Liberty's crew believes the Israeli assault was deliberate unless they are telling the simple truth?

 

Then, America was NOT an ally of Israel.

 

I've seen no evidence that ALL the surviving members of the Liberty crew believe the Israelis knowingly attacked an American ship.

And the thing from Forslund is basically

"I and two others saw this nearly 50 years ago and it is radically difficult from the official story". Not credible by any means.

And once again, absent a reasonable motive, the official story is not the least bit questionable.

 

Maybe Lyndon hated sailors?

"J.Q. 'Tony' Hart, then a chief petty officer assigned to a U.S. Navy relay station in Morocco that handled communications between Washington and the 6th Fleet, remembered listening as Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, in Washington, ordered Rear Adm. Lawrence Geis, commander of the America's carrier battle group, to bring the jets home.

"When Geis protested that the Liberty was under attack and needed help, Hart said, McNamara retorted that 'President [Lyndon] Johnson is not going to go to war or embarrass an American ally over a few sailors.'"

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html#page=2

 

In that case, would you agree with the following?

"Though the attack on the Liberty has faded from public memory, Michael Oren, a historian and senior fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, conceded that 'the case of the assault on the Liberty has never been closed.'

"If anything, Oren said, 'the accusations leveled against Israel have grown sharper with time.' Oren said in an interview that he believed a formal investigation by the U.S., even 40 years later, would be useful if only because it would finally establish Israel's innocence."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html#page=2

 

typing slowly.

delete after reading.

the liberty fiasco is on the door step of the CIA

the usn does not leave sailors to the wolves.

 

Incident has been investigated. Compensation has been paid.

Story is over. It should be forgotten.

 

The incident has never been investigated by the entire US Congress.
It should be televised on CSPAN with Hebrew subtitles.

"Haven't there been numerous US investigations into the attack?

"A:

"No there haven't. No US governmental entity has ever undertaken an investigation into the culpability for the attack. There have been investigations into the seamanship of the crew (US Navy Court of Inquiry), the message handling procedures of the US military (The JCS Russ Report), and other attempts to report publicly reported facts. No agency or other institution has ever conducted a fact finding investigation into the question of why the Israelis launched the attack and their prior knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship.

"Q:

"What about Congressional investigations?

"A:

"There have been no Congressional investigations. One of the more prominent Israeli propagandists, AJ Cristol, created this allegation in the mold of the 'Big Lie' technique of the 1930's ('if you tell a big enough lie often enough, people will come to believe it').

"The Librarian of Congress, when asked about this allegation of purported Congressional investigations, formally replied:

"'After checking numerous resources, including the CIS (Congressional Information Service) Indexes to Congressional Hearings (both published and unpublished), and the Public Documents Masterfile, I could find no evidence that the Congress ever held hearings or launched an investigation into the June 8, 1967 incident with the USS Liberty."


http://www.gtr5.com/faq-1.htm

Can you tell us why you believe you know more about this incident than those who lived it?