The Free markets simply CANNOT manage affordable healthcare.

No problem?
The only rights ever granted are by the laws governing the people. In the USA, supposedly 'We the People, choose the gov't and then act on 'We the People's' behalf.
Although, I really question if they act on behalf of the people and not corporations or their personal well being. But a totally different topic.

 

Sorry, our rights do not come from man. Rights given by man can also be taken by man.

The Supreme Court is there to determine if Congress' actions are Constitutional, almost always based on the Bill of Rights which is a restriction on what government can do, and to adjudicate when there is a conflict between rights. It does *NOT* exist to give us our rights.

It's like the DoI says: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

It does *NOT* say: "Governments are instituted among Men to give them their rights".

 

We agreed what rights the gov had.
The gov granted no rights to the people

 

We have the right to change gov't if the people don't like what the gov't has granted.
Other than that, yes, we follow what the gov't has bestowed.

 

[QUOTE="yguy, post: 1067733048, member: 36186"

So which of the Founders were Muslims?

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate.[/QUOTE]

Got me. I was just covering the bases. I'm pretty sure there weren't any Buddhists. If any of them were Native American's then they were mostly monotheistic as well and believed in a Creator.

 

The gov't protects the rights the people think they have.
But that doesn't seem to be the case. Take the Patriot Act. Many rights have been violated in the name of security.

 

Got me. I was just covering the bases. I'm pretty sure there weren't any Buddhists. If any of them were Native American's then they were mostly monotheistic as well and believed in a Creator.[/QUOTE]
But not the same creator as the muslims, christians, and jews do.
Hence they have their own creator. Or believe they have one as others do. It's why the word is 'their', not 'the'.

 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

The government doesn't bestow rights, it bestows ENTITLEMENTS.

Rights are those things you can exercise without putting a burden on anyone else.

Entitlements are those things you can only exercise by putting a burden on someone else.

 

Wrong. General Welfare will undoubtedly but a burden on others. This is where the Welfare of the society is greater than an individual.

 

I didn't say that government cannot SUPPRESS our rights. They certainly can. But they can't take them away because they didn't give them to us in the first place.

If government *can* take away our rights then how would we ever get them back? Once they are gone they are gone if they are based on men giving them. We then become slaves to government and are slaves forever.

 

So we consent to the removal of specific rights from time to time. Thanks again for agreeing

 

General welfare is not a *right* or an entitlement. General welfare are those things that benefit everyone generally, roads, sewer systems, water treatment plants, fire, police, etc. We *pay* for those. Just like you pay for your groceries!

Do you consider paying for your groceries to be a burden?

And the welfare of society is *NOT* greater than that of the individual. You keep spouting collectivism. You've studied too much Marxism.

 

But not the same creator as the muslims, christians, and jews do.
Hence they have their own creator. Or believe they have one as others do. It's why the word is 'their', not 'the'.[/QUOTE]

What in Pete's name are you talking about? We've already been down this road.

<Rule 3>

 

Of course they did.
Where else does any of our rights come from?
Don't say some make believe creator no one can define.

We don't get them back, unless we can vote in people who will do that or by some sort of revolution.

 

Never studied marxism. More childish and quite ignorant projections. You do that a lot.
We all live in a society. Of course there is collectivism.
A healthy society, an educated society, is also a benefit to all.
We could not be a world leader if we are sick and uneducated.

 

The original intent was natural rights. Things have gotten so out of hand, that there's just no getting back to the original intent. For example, you think that you have a right to my money. That's not the original intent.

so you have nothing to complain about when it comes to the constitution. You gave that up long ago.

 

You brought up Native Americans, I can guarantee they don't have a creator from the person name Abraham in the bible.
So therefore, it is NOT the creator as you try to change the word their to.
But no need to go down that road. A creator has nothing at all to do with anyone's rights.

<Reply to Deleted>

 

Who's complaining?
What is a natural right?
Other than might makes right. That's the only natural one I know of.

 

Our nation was founded upon the principles so eloquently stated in the Declaration of Independence.

You *MUST* read John Locke's "2nd Treatise on Government" if you hope to understand *any* of this. And I mean read it slowly for comprehension.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

If you abandon the concept that our rights come from outside man then you are doomed to live under the Law of the Jungle where the strong survive and the weak get eaten. The only "right" there is becomes how much power you hold, in your right arm and over other men. Might makes right.

If you don't have rights outside of man then your vote is meaningless. Sooner or later a tyrant will become your master. If you have no rights outside of man then what would your revolution be? Just another exhibition of who is the strongest survivor?

 

Just because you didn't study it doesn't mean you didn't learn it and aren't espousing it. A rose by any other name is still a rose!

Our nation was founded on the concept of sovereign individuals with individual rights given by their Creator.

Collectivism is the precept that took down the Soviet Union and Maoist China and which has made hell-holes out of Cuba, North Korea, and Venezuela.

You do *not* need collectivism to have a healthy society, America is the leading example of that. And it was American individualism that took man to the moon and back with an education system second to none - till the Marxist Democrats (i.e. collectivists) got control of the education system under Jimmy Carter. It's been downhill ever since.

The biggest sickness in this society was foretold by Daniel Patrick Moynihan in 1965. My guess you've never even heard of him let alone read his tome on the consequences of building a welfare society by breaking up the nuclear family!

It is usually the uneducated, especially in history, that see salvation in collectivism.

 

Man is all we have to live by and under.
But if you know this creator, please, give the exact words the creator have given man. I'm willing to read them. Or hear them if you have a recording.

I've stated once in this thread, and many times in others.
The only natural right anyone has is might makes right. Else they need to be granted, bestowed, protected by something. Typically this is a gov't. But not always.

Please share how a Native American has the same creator as Abraham of the bible has. If that is the specific creator you seem to think we all have to live by.
Don't be so coy, please give us this creator's exact words that the entire world is to live by. Or did this creator only give these rights to the USA?

 

OK, it's obvious you have no clue on any of this.
You do know, it was gov't that got us to the moon and back. Done with the collective money.
And that education system was publicly funded. By the collective.

When you gonna spill what this creator is?
When you gonna give us these words from the creator that shows these rights the whole world has?
Does that include illegal immigrants? Are they created as equal? Do they have the same rights as US people? It is ALL afterall.

 

okay, you don't understand. It's easy enough to google, but... you're not interested. Might does, indeed, make right.

So now we know where we stand on the issue of politics. Might against Might, and may the strongest win.

 

What else has there ever been?
You agree with me, but tell me I don't understand? WTF?
The US was somewhat unique in that might was more in the power of the people to elect who they want to be a voice for them.
But slowly our liberties and freedoms have eroded. Mostly so folks could feel secure.
Liberties given up in the name of security, means someday we'll have neither. Paraphrased from Franklin, I believe.

 

I never said they did. But most of the various tribes *did* believe in a Creator. Names are irrelevant. Again, a rose by any other name is stil la rose!

Again, names are irrelevant!