Welfare State and Value of Humans.

No idea what you are talking about and how it might apply to the subject. Do you want to explain or leave it in the rubbish bin?

I realize that the subject of taxes (and how much of it a citizen ought to pay) is causing you sleepless nights. Let me make it simple for you: Every citizen can afford everything you (personally) have yourself. Plus we get a total of 6 weeks PAID vacation every year ...... even the unemployed. The price of our high living-standard is affordable to everyone. Now you may come to Scandinavia and find our prices "EXHORBITANT" but if we can afford those prices and still live better than the average American then perhaps the percentage of the taxes we pay is irrelevant? Is it possible for you to put your mind around that fact?

It is called 'government'. Every nation has a government it's just that some are better than others ..... for all of its citizens, not only for the rich. Our government is a DEMOCRATIC one. The idea is that a DEMOCRATIC government is supposed to represent its citizens, not the citizens who are supposed to represent the government. In a DEMOCRATIC government, it is we the people who employ politicians to do what we tell them to do. The government taxes the rich because that is what we want them to do, not because the rich themselves are "willing" as you say. Asking not what the government can do for us but asking what we can do for it is a FASCIST notion. We pay our government to do what we tell it to do. We do not pay them and then subjugate ourselves to the rich through government tyranny.

 

I understand. But as I tried to point out ..... if you want to go fishing all day long and still be eligible for social benefits then there are several things you need to keep in mind. You will have no possessions. None. Plus you will be compelled to actively seek employment .......... and prove it. You will have to fit your hours of fishing between your hours of job-seeking, but yes, it can be done. Whether the OP is aware of the facts I do not know. But I suspect that he does.

 

Okay I'm going to disagree with you as a person born disabled and with several disabilities my first support when young was my family, after I left High School I worked as they took care of me and when my father traveled in the service I worked often as a Busker and only when my needs were more than they could help me with did I turn to the State. But they do help me I get an SSI check, SNAP and Medicaid. I'm not a proud man I asked for help when I had no choice but to ask and got benefits rather quickly.

As for the mentally ill we had a large system of State mental hospitals to care for the mentally sick unable to function in society without help and due to some abuses which needed to be corrected we tossed out the whole system one which could have evolved into a far better system of permanent housing care and half-way houses and community residential houses to allow the more functional to try to mainstreams.

Taxpayers even the conservative critics never said in any seriousness there should be no help at all if a person has to have help most accept a system should be in place just the size and who gets the help seems more an issue that people are incentivized not to work if they get help and its too generous or de facto permanent support for people able to work.

But the claim the State does nothing is not true.

 

What is this nonsense about North Korea. My point is that strong growth should be prioritized because nations with strong growth are going to see great standards of living increases and improvements in incomes and quality of life. The poor in the US live better than most of the world and thats thanks to our previous growth. If we can get strong growth and get income inequality down the poor will see great benefits.

 

Let me ask in all seriousness. Are your people so comfortable in their mediocrity that they continue to coast through life receiving freebies from the wealthy or do any of your everyday common folks move on to become wealthy themselves?

 

You set the parameter yourself when you compared "primitive stone-age society" against whatever it was you felt was "better". If you can introduce "primitive stone-age society" as part of your argument then you'll have to accept my introduction about even North Korea being a better society than your "stone-age" one as well. It is only a smoke screen so perhaps you'd like to use some other analogy to support your point on the importance of "growth priority" as it pertains to "standards of living" and "quality of life"?

What you are saying about strong growth ought to be obvious, but it's a pie in the sky if your population is not central to your argument. It isn't. You are (through no fault of your own) simply using the corrupt Reagen horse-crappy about wealth "filtering down" to the rest of the population. Your system has built-in clogs in the filter ......... ain't nuthin' gonna' "filter through". The US has been boasting about its wealth, democracy, and freedom for a long, long time now. But the truth is that although the US (read a handful of gazillionaires) does possess wealth, its democracy and freedom is a lie. In fact, it is the very issue of wealth-hoarding and an intentionally clogged "filter" that is the fundamental reason for both democracy and freedom being lies.

And now to your own lie: "The poor in the US live better than most of the world." I wonder, have you ever given any serious, soul-searching thought to the real meaning behind that sentence? I am confident that you have not. You remind me of the argument about the US never EVER having lost a war. B-b-b-but what about Vietnam? "Ahhhh, but we never declared 'war' with Vietnam!" Ho-hum. And now you are telling me, "The poor in the US live better than most of the world!" Ho-hum.

 

This is like me asking (in all seriousness) if your courts have succeeded in prosecuting you for the murder you committed last year.

 

No, of course not, it's worse than that - it's a welfare "heaven". At least in Communism you were required to work, not only collect welfare and breed like rats.

 

Whoever it was who gave you lessons in political philosophy, he was very unkind to you. He withheld the most important fact, that under Communism there was no unemployment for 2 reasons:

1). Yes, as you say everyone had to work.

2). There were enough jobs to go around for every citizen.

 

Hardly. If you are comfortable in your poverty where is the drive to become more?

To the other guy. The Nordic system is not communism and it is not socalisim. But it is not freedom either. They live in a democracy. We live in a republic. Democracy is essentially mob rule and a republic protects individual liberty. BUT. Our republic is broken and turning into a democracy that will eventually turn communistic. As will theirs if it continues.

Anyway. Under the Nordic model they entice corporations to their land by offering economic freedom. Right now it is working, and as for as corporations are concerned they are more economically free than we are. But there is a cost. Individual liberty. Something that most of Western Europe has never really had.

 

More than hardly. If your conscience doesn't torment you, just because you didn't get caught, what is going to prevent you from killing again?

To the other guy. That's right, the Nordic system is not communism. It is Socialist-Democracy. I know that I don't need to tell YOU that but this is a difficult thing for most Americans to understand because first of all, they have little understanding of any political philosophy, including their own. Secondly, they come from a Two-Party system which contributes greatly to their misunderstanding of political philosophy, ie. they have learned to short-cut knowledge by way of a two-party, two-way, black and white, left or right, love it or leave it, with us or against us ..... Dick & Jane simplicity which curtails a broader understanding of the world as a whole. In a sense, the average American carries with him a tiny card up his/her sleeve. Upon this card are a few keys words, each followed by one additional word, GOOD or BAD. Degrees of good-ness or bad-ness (in a multi-party system) are much too complicated for the average American to worry himself with. He just does not have the skills. But how can he? What was he taught? Not much.

It is obvious that you already know this, but for the benefit for those who do not know it, Western Europe (Scandinavia in particular) is blessed with more freedom, more liberty, a better quality of life, and a far greater degree of Democracy than the US has ever had.

 

That is the most interesting point a disabled person was given ,assuming no profound issues, the same education and rights as all other citizens this often meant a right to a job and housing and all the other benefits the State was mandated to offer this improved greatly in the 1960's and later as work options improved. However if one couldn't work there was only two options the families could care for them getting some added aid to do so or they were institutionalized and that was not humane in many cases. However they did a better job than the US since here disability had no protections at all for a disabled citizen.

 

Maybe it's a language thing. Or a different mentality. But I honestly can't see how you compare the two. Can you break it down barney style for me as well as answer my questions instead of distracting?

 

I was never comparing anything to North Korea. You are truly nuts if you think North Korea had anything to do with my point.

So we agree? Why are you debating me then? I am making the obvious point that strong growth that isn't just for the rich helps the poor through technological advancements, increased production and cheaper products, and a greater standard of liiving and can be more beneficial than just having them live on welfare forever and drag down economic growth.

I was never advocating trickle down economics or saying that the way to good growth is tax cuts for the rich.

And we are very wealthy and technologically advanced and millions of people try to get into the US every year. To them even being poor in the US is like paradise compared to the lives they have in their countries.

Our democracy and freedom are far from perfect but its hard to claim that we aren't a lot more free or democratic than most of the world.

The average GDP per capita in the world is $15,000 in 2015 dollars adjusted for cost of living. Since there is a lot of income inequality then high incomes for the rich especially in the western world skews this measure so the median or incomes in the middle are more like $10,000. The poor in the US earn between $15,000 and $40,000 and earn a lot more than the average person in the world. We have clean drinking water, plenty of food, internet and many other basic conveniences billions in the world lack.

Nobody says the US never lost a war. Obviously we lost Vietnam. You never refuted my claim so bringing up some dumb analogy is pretty pointless. Millions of people every year try to get into the US even if they are just poor in the US. We have tends of millions of illegals who live in poverty and fear in the US because thats better than what they got in Mexico.

 

The best insight I have seen on this thread, so far .... both in its positive and negative points

 

I don't think you can handle it.

I think you are just pretending not to know.

 

So what's your point?

 

America is the wealthiest country in the world, according to Forbes/Asia:
1) United States - $48,734 billion.

2) China $17,254 billion.

3) Japan $15,230 billion.

 

Yep! If you could get the Russians from going to American and staging phoney protest marches then America can get back to high living without a guilty conscience:



America is the wealthiest country in the world you fools!!! Crap! It didn't work! I don't think they understood me. Can anybody here translate what I said into Russian?

 

Try me.

 

Naw. I think you already understand but you just want to fake it for awhile. That's OK but I don't like games unless we've had an agreement to shuck & jive in good fun.

 

I'm not playing games.

 

Good.

 

Humans are not rats. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam see humans as Creation of paramount value.

 

The State has a right to impose high taxes on the property which millionaires do not really need.