California movement to secede from US cleared to gather signatures

The Native American issue is an interesting one. I have often wondered why there has never been a significant aspiration to statehood among them. I suppose its their lack of an economy, but by any set of criteria, they would qualify as having the right of self-determination.

 

We have issues that need to be solvved and aren't going to be solved by capitalism, because the problem isn't aligned with the profit motive.

As I pointed out, Assad was a serious problem recognized by the US as such by Bush in 2001. And, the drought was more than the Assad government could handle. His goto solution was violence against his own people, totally fake elections where significnat numbers of voters were explicitly excluded, etc.. The result was that a revolutionary movement began. That was before the entry of terrorist groups that also wanted revolution - serously complicating the situation with the multiple competing objectives.

One has to look at these issues individually, too. Diversity has been a significant contributor to our success as a nation. In other places, serious problems often do break on ethnic or religious lines, but that doesn't mean that the diversity was the original problem. The problem with Assad isn't that Syria was diverse.

That's not even slightly a measure of intigration in America. Today the major terrorist threat in America (according to the FBI and to counts of violent events) comes from white supremecists. We have ME individuals who are currently in cngress.

The fact that anyone in the world (except China?) can watch terrorism on their computer doesn't suggest diversity is a problem in America.

Are you suggesting that the white supremacy movement in America is comeing from DEMOCRATS???

Plus, I don't see your ideas on measuring patriotism as acceptable. It is TOTALLY patriotic to suggest that we should not have conquered Iraq (or Libya or Afghanistan), suggest that it is morally wrong and self defeating in terms of what we stand for to promote Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine, to suggest that Americans deserve healthcare as much as the citizens of other first world countries, etc., etc.

All these factors have a bearing on what America stands for. Promoting that we follow the sound principles set down by our founders can not be considered unpatriotic - even if thre are those who believe THEY are being patriotic when they ignore the issues our founders stated that we stand for.

I don't believe we're "moving heave and earth" to make it work. In fact, we're working to make it NOT work in many cases.

 

Yes, the constitutional history of the UK is quite different. I'm always a bit taken aback by the UK having four (?) different rugby teams, one for each nation.

As for the US. No one knows the future. People on my side of the barricades like to ascribe America's great success solely to the wisdom of its Founding Fathers. But in reality, material reality played a large role as well, in allowing the 'republican experiment' to succeed without worrying about any external threat, and with a seemingly-endless supply of free land (once the original inhabitants were exterminated or removed) to turn proletarians into proprietors. (Historians like to argue about why the US, alone among advance capitalist nations, never had a signifcant labor/socialist party. But the reason seems obvious to me.)

Now, that has changed. And the things that held the US together, and made it the world hegemon, for three generations after WWII, have changed as well.
The challenge of a rising China, the growth of serious inequality in the US, the hollowing out of American industry, the erosion of the moral standards of the white working class as its jobs were shipped abroad, and the emergence of a new generation of the governing cultural apparatus, schooled in disdain for America ... this is going to have, I believe, large but unpredictable effects.

The polarization in America is not the result of flawed character on either side. The fifty million people who voted for Trump, and the fifty million who voted against him, no longer share the same assumptions about the world. How this will play out, I don't know.

The thing is, we're unconscious empiricists when it comes to thinking about the future. The sun rose yesterday, it rose today, therefore it will rise tomorrow. We apply the same sort of inductive logic to social reality: yesterday was pretty much like today, and today will be pretty much like tomorrow, and so it goes.

But there are big changes happening in America. I'll give one example: a few years ago, a Black teenager robbed a shop, and then tried to take away a policeman's gun, and was shot to death on his second try. Of course the Left screamed 'racism', 'hands up', and flocked to Fergusson Missouri to try to burn the place down. Obama's Justice Department investigated, and found that the policeman was not at fault. There is no argument about this.

But ... Elizabeth Warren, not a stupid woman, during her campaign for the nomination, asserted that Michael Brown was "murdered". (And she was echoed by a couple of other Democratic candididates.) Now I remember Bill Clinton in 1992 rebuking one of his supporters, "Sister Soul-jah", a popular Black singer who casually said that Blacks should stop killing each other and start killling whites instead. He didn't hesitate to repudiate this idea, and quite right too.

But things have changed. Lies are cooly accepted as truths, or perhaps 'higher truths', and proposals that were seen as crazy a few years ago, like reparations, are now mainstream in the Democratic Party. I am sure liberals can recount equivalent changes among Republicans.

I believe these changes in attitudes reflect deeper strains within the polity. What will happen as a result of them, I don't know, but I wouldn't rely on the logic of "it's never happened in the past, so it can't happen in the future."

Which brings us to Independent California. I believe Left and Right in the US should begin to at least consider the mechanics of an amicable, no-fault divorce.

 

Great! I like that area, too. But, there are other things I like more in terms of permanent address.

Now, the next step is to recognize that almost nobody can do what you are doing, and thus to support mechanisms that promote American success for the VAST majority that can not live near you - which I'd bet you don't want to happen, anyway.

 

Your post seemed more like at attack against Mitch McConnell. That's fine of course. If you want to argue that McConnell is corrupt, I might go along with much of that, but it doesn't seem to have much to do with this thread.

So you seem to indirectly disagree with my idea that an independent California would be open to Chinese bribery and influence. I think an independent California would be a major target of the Chinese. However if you disagree that's fine, since it's unlikely we'll see an independent California.

 

No, white supremacy is not found among present-day Democrats. (It was before 1970 of course, among 'Southern Democrats'. But that has nothing to do with today's Democratic Party.)

I don't know its actual strength among the white population, but there is a current -- I just use the word 'significant' to get around a numerical estimate of its strength -- of white 'ethno-nationalists'. You can find them on YouTube, on Facebook, on 4Chan ... Many of them are fairly sophisticated. (They also include a group of anti-Semites.) They do battle against rightwingers like me, who are -- in their terminology -- "civic nationalists". That is, we rightwing civic nationalists emphasize American patriotism (or nationalism, if you want to use that word), as something which embraces all Americans.

In fact, we believe that such patriotism is the only effective anti-racism -- all other 'anti-racism' is just skin-deep, something the American population has been indoctrinated with for the last fifty years by finger-wagging scolds, trying to make them feel guilty, but which doesn't really grab people emotionally. Whereas patriotism does capture the emotions. Here's an example:

There are a lot of young white (and probably, HIspanic) males, who reject Political Correctness. They talk about being "red-pilled". They are being actively courted by the white ethno-nationalists, and not very effectively approached by "civic nationalists". Here's a link to a YouTube video, where an ethno-nationalist boasts about defeating, in an argument, a spokesman for 'Turning Point', a conservative college student group. Basically, the ethno-nationalists take what the Left now says -- "America was founded by horrible white racists! Shame! Shame! " and turn it on its head: they say,"Yes it was, and it's been a pretty good country, thanks to white people ... so let's separate." [ ]

For nearly a century, the Left emphasized class politics. They went out among white workers and organized them into trade unions, despite the fact that these workers were far more backward on racial issues than white workers are today. But that has changed. The Left today is the expression of the young, educated, middle class, which has nothing but contempt for the 'deplorables' who don't have college degrees. They virtue-signal their 'anti-racism', because it costs nothing.

Anyway, the racial fracture line is real, the Left is going to pry it open as much as they can, and they may succeed. But ... if identity politics really catches on among racial minorities, it will be only a question of time before it begins to grow among whites. At the moment, the Left believe it's a terrible racist crime to assert "It's okay to be white". And most whites just want a quiet life and avoid the issue. But this may change, in which case we are in deep trouble.

One more point: of course you are right that the market can't deal with everything. We need a centralied government to intervene and force people to behave in certain ways, on certain issues. Every rightwinger I know is absolutely happy with the Federal Government forcing everyone to pay taxes, so that we can buy aircraft carriers and nuclear missiles and hydrogen bombs. The market couldn't do that. No disagreement there.

 

I'm all for it, but I'd give them terms so unfavorable that even they would oppose it. For starters:

- AFTER the 2020 census, we allow as much of the left-wing areas of California to leave as is required to turn California back into a red state.
- Anyone who leaves renounces their US citizenship and forfeits any benefits such citizenship entails (such as voting, free entrance into the USA, social security payments, etc.)
- Those seceding regions do not get to take any federally-owned land with with them
- California compensates USA for whatever infrastructure they're taking with them that was paid for with federal funds (highways, bridges, ports, etc)

The last point is negotiable in my eyes, the first three should not be.

I imagine most other Democrat states would oppose a California secession simply because of the political implications of leaving them a minority party for the foreseeable future.

 

Let them Go !
Let them Go !
Let them Go !

Just take away the California 55 electoral votes for all presidential elections going forward.

 

OK, I agree that a lot of manufacturing is coming from overseas. But, we've reached a point where we don't have the advantage in manufacturing that we once had. Nobody should EVER have guessed that other countries would be perpetually wose at manufacturing. Capitalism is a competition. It doesn't offer permanent ownership of a market segment.

So, all we can complain about is how slowly WE move to sectors where we have (or could have) an advantage. We know several newer sectors - high tech clean energy, etc The crime isn't that we didn't block manufacturing from changing where they do the work, it's that we allowed China to own clean energy.

The Furgesson issue goes deeper than that. The fact of the hair trigger doesn't come from one event - it comes from the fact of far too many of similar incidents and the fact that there is a huge rift between the community and police who commute to Furgesson and report to remote and totally unresponsive management. And, it probably goes deeper than that, too, as Furgesson has many problems that require external support to fix.

I certainly agree with the concern about lies. There has been NO COVID briefing that hasn't included false information. And, it does have serious affects on America.

The whole idea that CA might secede is no more than an expression of hate by people who dont know what the heck they're talking about.

 

Mitch McConnell is an example of Russia doing EXACTLY what you were concerned about China doing.

Are you OK with Russia doing that?

You pitch your China thing as if it is a negative, so I'm just curious if you see Russia doing that is a negative.

CA isn't going anywhere. The very idea is preposterous.

 

Those who tout their patriotism tend to be attempting to wrap themselves in the flag while they cover for their white supremacist politics. I don't really see anything different from that in what you say about patriotism. You still attempt to pitch patriotism as a justification for being better than progressives.

Those who created unions were those who were miserably treated by manufacturers - unpredictalbe hourse, long hours, horrible conditions, ridiculous pay and any push back resulting in being fired.

That problem is coming back as the right wing disassembles protections for working Americans. And, that includes their wages, which have been flat or even below cost of living increase ove the past few decades - hidden by the huge benefits increases for the wealthy through tax cuts, etc.

As for education, you're missing that manufacturing does not provide America the competitive advantage that it once did.

We need to create new sectors where WE have a advantage. And as of today, those new sectors require significant education.

So, hate the educated all you want, but that IS an area where we need to focus.

 

Well... there's approximately 3,750,000 people who live in the general Denver/Colorado Springs metro areas. Looks like there's a lot of people besides me who have moved here and decided to stay.

The "mechanisms" that were available to all of us here along what we call "The Front Range" (Denver/Colo.Spgs. area) are not so different from those that anyone in the country has -- but -- we don't have some of the vulnerabilities like hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. So, not sure what "mechanisms" you're referring to, but evidently whatever they are, they were "mechanisms" that we Coloradans have been able to do without....

 

I loved California back in the 80's and 90's -- before it turned into a hyperliberal pile of 'social justice warrior' crap, a "Sanctuary State" and a magnet for illegal aliens and a dumping ground for homeless bums. I can even remember when they didn't close beaches in the San Diego area because of massive amounts of floating sewage coming up from Tijuana. I can remember when you could walk down the sidewalks in La Jolla and not have thread your way around piles of sh!t and puddles of puke and urine. Ah, those were the days!

After the next series of earthquakes, maybe all the hyperliberal idiots will fan-out to other parts of the country, and then California will be fit to live in again. A mixed blessing, since that will fug-up every place those morons go, but at least they won't be concentrated in California, and they'll be too broke to do much damage.

 

You realize your link doesn't even imply wrongdoing or involvement by McConnell? I'm sure if there was, there would be multiple threads about it. This is simply a distraction from the Chinese, who for some reason, the Dems are super chummy with. And given an independent California, would gravitate to a very close relationship with.

I mean, your voting for Biden who has a very pro-China record and with Hunter having been involved with business there, let's say we know who the Chinese are supporting.

I await your McConnell thread.

 

What you described didn't sound like a metro area to me.

Colorado has hundres of cases of COVID19, so PPE, testing, ventilators, social distancing, travel reduction, etc. would be as appropriate as in other metro areas.

I know Colorado mostly from the air, as a friend and I owned a plane. The best maintenance for that particular plane was in Kansas. So, that was a yearly trip.

 

I gave you one of a large number of posts that explain Russia's investment in McConnell's state at the same time that McConnell fought to get Russia off the hook for their assault on our democracy.

THAT is the kind of deal you were suggesting CA would be sure to make.

 

Yes, of course the other 'Blue' states would oppose it.
So ... let's think Big.

What about a peaceful separation of Red and Blue America? There are tons of practical problems, but they could all be dealt with. When Norway and Sweden broke apart, when Ireland got its independence, when the Czech Republic and Slovakia parted ... in every case they had to decide what to do with the pension plans, the public debt in general, who got the trucks owned by the previous unitary government ... a veritable cornicopia for the lawyers, God bless them. But then that's why we have lawyers, to help us settle things like this without shooting at each other.

It's a meme. When first raised, every sane person's reaction is"Get Real! Never gonna happen!" But as the years go by, and the deep incompatibility between Red and Blue America is repeatedly revealed ... this meme will float to the surface of our consciousness, and take on life.

 

If California were an independent state it would be the 8th richest country on earth.
So why would you want to evict them from the union???? Could it be that you despise the homosexuals living there. Let me tell you something: those sword-swallowers in San Francisco opposed the war in Iraq and so did Pelosi who represents Frisco in the House. So we need their wisdom to avoid senseless conflicts around the world.

 

Oh, so now we've gone from a discussion regarding secession and state's rights to one in which anyone who criticizes Kalifornia is someone who "despises homosexuals"... and was in favor of the Iraq War...? Do you wake up in the morning with your mind in this kind of disarray already?

 

Well, 3,750,000 inhabitants may not be much of a metro area compared with "Southland", but there's enough people here to make driving a royal pain in the ass, and to make finding a parking spot an unpleasant chore.... But what is a 'metro' area? Ten million? Fifteen million? Twenty million? Whatever....

Now the topic shifts to COVID19, PPE, ventilators, etc.? We're doing OK here in Colorado. Our Governor announced yesterday that "stay-at-home" mandates will expire next Sunday, and, we're sending 35 Colorado-based nurses to New Jersey to help them with virus situations in their hospitals. We aren't in GREAT shape yet, but we're doing OK.

And finally the topic 'lands' with airplane maintenance in Kansas? OK. Possibly in Wichita? There are three excellent airplane maintenance service centers there, as you probably know. Except for the hailstorms, Wichita is a very nice small city... but not 'metro'.

What else you want to talk about...? How 'bout the price of cocaine in Bel Air these days? That's more like 'metro'...?

Anyway, back to California and leaving the United States... they can take their wonderous economy, their hyperliberal, 'woke' governments, their masses of illegals, homeless bums, and other useless, parasitic trash and form their own independent nation anytime they like, as far as I'm concerned. The sooner, the better!

 

I didn't suggest a particular type of corruption, only that California would be open to it. In fact, you don't even have to wait for independence...

https://www.latimes.com/california/...ks-byd-chinese-company-california-legislature

 

No, it almost certainly would not be. A large part of California's wealth stems from the fact that it enjoys unhindered trade with the other 49 states and the other ~290 million Americans that live there. If California ceases to be a state in the Union, it loses that benefit, and with it a fair bit of its customer base. The secessionists are severely underestimating the sort of economic turmoil that would roil California if it left the Union. Things would not continue as they have previously.

 

Ahhhhhh I think it was settled in the 1860's that no a state could not leave and in fact the United States military burned and destroyed most of those states that attempted to do so enforcing that. 600,000 lives were lost during that conflict. If the 11 states that attempt to leave were utterly destroyed and forced to stay why is it that California would be able to do so. If they vote to do so and declare themselves a separate country won't the US military go in and force them back in? Those Southern states and their citizens are called traitors here on this board the memorials to those sons and daughters who gave their lives to be removed and destroyed.

If it is determined that that was wrong and in fact a state can vote to leave will the Southern states get reparations for the destruction and death that was brought upon them?

 

Things change.
What was considered normal and acceptable at one point -- human slavery -- become unthinkable at another.
States have a strong motive to retain all of the geography that they can, and to acquire more. Thus the US tore off half of Mexico, because it could. Thus the British held on to Catholic Ireland for as long as they could. China wants Taiwain, China and Japan quarrel over some stupid rocks in the S China Sea, the Spanish state wants to hold on to Catalonia and the Basque country. There is no question of exalted political principle here, just the desire to hold on to as much as you can. Totally understandable.

Running counter to this is an idea that has been growing in strength for the last five hundred years or so, which we might call democratic recognition. The little guys should have a voice too -- including in how the society is run. Almost everyone pays lip service to this now.

So, my assertion is -- and it's not rightwing or leftwing -- that if a large majority of the little guys living in a certain region don't want to be ruled from outside their borders, that this, in principle, is a valid desire. I say 'in principle' because there are all kinds of practical problems associated with its realization.

In the case of the South, the practical thing that got in the way of it being just a case of self-determination, was slavery. The ruling elite of the South wanted its independence so they could own slaves. To my mind, that trumped the question of the right of self-determination.

Anyway, if the good people of California want to leave, and if they are smart enough to make generous concessions to the pro-US 'remainers' -- offering dual citizenship, for example, and offering generous financial help to facilitate population transfers -- I'm in favor of letting them go. Why not?

By the way, I'm not interested in the legalities of the case, not even the Constitutional legalities (if we need to, amend the Constitution), but there is a law professor who has worked on this problem: He's just written a book on it, American Secession, which you can get here: [ https://www.amazon.com/American-Secession-Looming-National-Breakup/dp/1641770805/ ]

 

... and a lot the wealth of the U.S. comes out of California not Arkansas. Turn off the California spigot and the U.S. goes into a great Depression. Just off the top of my head California is home to a whole host of industries: Silicon Valley, Hollywood, Wine country.
California is also the top state in the United States for all farm income. California produces almost all of the country's almonds, apricots, dates, figs, kiwi fruit, nectarines, olives, pistachios, prunes, and walnuts and leads in the production of avocados, grapes, lemons, melons, peaches, plums, and strawberries.

As for oranges, only one state — Florida — produces more oranges.

Aerospace is a very large chunk of the California economy. The California Economic Summit released the California Aerospace Industry Economic Impact Study in 2014, and found that the aerospace industry is larger than both agriculture and Hollywood combined. California is responsible for 9 percent of the global market share in the aerospace industry.

Tourism is very important for California as well. Many people visit Disney Land, Yosemite, Hollywood, the beautiful beaches and a lot of other attractions.