Challenge "the quran"

good post by the way.

 

Ok First question:

The Quran and prophet Mohammed say that prophet Saleh lived before Abrahim who lived around the 18th century BC.

Saleh was send to a nation called Thamud which existed between the 4th century BC until the 7th century AD, and the oldest known reference to them was in 715 BC.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/589948/Thamud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleh



Oh, and what is known as "Mada'in Saleh" was build around the 1st century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada'in_Saleh

 

Response: Being a former muslim does not justify ducking and dodging the challenge for fear of being exposed to the fact that the Qur'an is the proven true word of Allah.

 

Response: Yes, you are clearly confused, for you claim that Muhammad(saw) and the Qur'an made a claim, yet failed to show from the Qur'an or Sunnah that either made the claim to begin with. Apparently, logic is not your strong suit.

 

response: your responses have been proven to be a lie to 'all ah' us

by your own choice.

I challenge you to be honest over belief!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam



Keep trying

 

Response: Wikipedia is not the Qur'an or Sunnah. Keep trying.

 

Here is another one:

The Quran says: (And I created not the Jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me).
What about the poor sods who were living in China, India, The new world, Australia and other places where Islam was unknown for more than a thousand years? What was the purpose of their existence?

 

brothers contributing to the evolution of knowledge.


Imagine bringing each variant to the table and then all can share notes to learn from the other.

the fat a ha lying to 'all ah' us is beyond rediculous.

 

Are you really a muslim or you are just pretending?

Did you not read the Quran?

Please open the quran and read Sorah Al-A'raf


Wikipedia used a source acceptable by all muslims. The Quran

 

Response: One has nothing to do with the other, nor relates to the topic of the thread, so your point is as usual, pointless.

 

Response: In other words, you have nothing to show from the Qur'an or Sunnah, thus proving nothing. Debunked as usual.

 

I've been lied to for most of my life, and when I get confused and ask a question, they shush me and tell me that asking questions is haram (forbidden).

Most well educated muslims know that Islam is surely not the creation of allah but most of them are forced to stay quiet for fear of murder or worse.

TBH I don't care if muslims want to stay ignorant for the rest of their lives, but to try and preach their religion among educated people is a joke. Only the poor and ignorant convert to Islam.

 

Response: to the contrary, most educated people know that islam is true, even you yourself, despite the lack of education. But one's own ego and desire to be correct prevents you and others like you from admitting so. Yet the truth is the truth, whether you acknowledge it or not. So islam still remains true, regardless of your acknowledgement.

 

Am I talking to a sane person?

I just told you that it IS written in the quran, and specifically in Sorah Al-A'raf.

If you do not know how to read then I'll post it for others to see:

73. And to Thamud (people, We sent) their brother Salih (Saleh). He said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. (La ilaha ill-Allah: none has the right to be worshipped but Allah). Indeed there has come to you a clear sign (the miracle of the coming out of a huge she-camel from the midst of a rock) from your Lord. This she-camel of Allah is a sign unto you; so you leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm, lest a painful torment should seize you.

74. "And remember when He made you successors after 'Ad (people) and gave you habitations in the land, you build for yourselves palaces in plains, and carve out homes in the mountains. So remember the graces (bestowed upon you) from Allah, and do not go about making mischief on the earth."

75. The leaders of those who were arrogant among his people said to those who were counted weak - to such of them as believed: "Know you that Salih (Saleh) is one sent from his Lord." They said: "We indeed believe in that with which he has been sent."

76. Those who were arrogant said: "Verily, we disbelieve in that which you believe in."

77. So they killed the she-camel and insolently defied the Commandment of their Lord, and said: "O Salih (Saleh)! Bring about your threats if you are indeed one of the Messengers (of Allah)."

78. So the earthquake seized them, and they lay (dead), prostrate in their homes.

79. Then he [Salih (Saleh)] turned from them, and said: "O my people! I have indeed conveyed to you the Message of my Lord, and have given you good advice but you like not good advisers."

80. And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)?

81. "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)."

82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: "Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!"

83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment).

84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists, sinners, etc.).

85. And to (the people of) Madyan (Midian), (We sent) their brother Shu'aib. He said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (God) but Him. [La ilaha ill-Allah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)]." Verily, a clear proof (sign) from your Lord has come unto you; so give full measure and full weight and wrong not men in their things, and do not mischief on the earth after it has been set in order, that will be better for you, if you are believers.

86. "And sit not on every road, threatening, and hindering from the Path of Allah those who believe in Him. and seeking to make it crooked. And remember when you were but few, and He multiplied you. And see what was the end of the Mufsidun (mischief-makers, corrupts, liars).

87. "And if there is a party of you who believes in that with which I have been sent and a party who do not believe, so be patient until Allah judges between us, and He is the Best of judges."

88. The chiefs of those who were arrogant among his people said: "We shall certainly drive you out, O Shu'aib, and those who have believed with you from our town, or else you (all) shall return to our religion." He said: "Even though we hate it!

89. "We should have invented a lie against Allah if we returned to your religion, after Allah has rescued us from it. And it is not for us to return to it unless Allah, our Lord, should will. Our Lord comprehends all things in His Knowledge. In Allah (Alone) we put our trust. Our Lord! Judge between us and our people in truth, for You are the Best of those who give judgment."

90. The chiefs of those who disbelieved among his people said (to their people): "If you follow Shu'aib, be sure then you will be the losers!"

91. So the earthquake seized them and they lay (dead), prostrate in their homes.

92. Those who belied Shu'aib, became as if they had never dwelt there (in their homes). Those who belied Shu'aib, they were the losers.

93. Then he (Shu'aib) turned from them and said: "O my people! I have indeed conveyed my Lord's Messages unto you and I have given you good advice. Then how can I sorrow for the disbelieving people's (destruction)."

94. And We sent no Prophet unto any town (and they denied him), but We seized its people with suffering from extreme poverty (or loss in wealth) and loss of health and calamities, so that they might humiliate themselves (and repent to Allah).

95. Then We changed the evil for the good, until they increased in number and in wealth, and said: "Our fathers were touched with evil (loss of health and calamities) and with good (prosperity, etc.)." So We seized them of a sudden while they were unaware.

96. And if the people of the towns had believed and had the Taqwa (piety), certainly, We should have opened for them blessings from the heaven and the earth, but they belied (the Messengers). So We took them (with punishment) for what they used to earn (polytheism and crimes, etc.).

97. Did the people of the towns then feel secure against the coming of Our Punishment by night while they are asleep?

Did the people of the towns then feel secure against the coming of Our Punishment by night while they are asleep?

98. Or, did the people of the towns then feel secure against the coming of Our Punishment in the forenoon while they play?

99. Did they then feel secure against the Plan of Allah. None feels secure from the Plan of Allah except the people who are the losers.

100. Is it not clear to those who inherit the earth in succession from its (previous) possessors, that had We willed, We would have punished them for their sins. And We seal up their hearts so that they hear not?

101. Those were the towns whose story We relate unto you (O Muhammad ). And there came indeed to them their Messengers with clear proofs, but they were not such as to believe in that which they had rejected before. Thus Allah does seal up the hearts of the disbelievers (from each and every kind of religious guidance).

102. And most of them We found not (true) to their covenant, but most of them We found indeed Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).

103. Then after them We sent Musa (Moses) with Our Signs to Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them. So see how was the end of the Mufsidun (mischief-makers, corrupts, etc.).



Sorah Al-A'raf shows the sequence in which prophets were sent, and it CLREALY shows that Saleh came before Moses (13th century BC), and Islamic scholars (not me) also testify that Saleh came before Ibrahim. They reached that conclusion from his ancestry as apposed to Ibrahim.

There is no reason for me to make up stories. I was a former muslim remember? So I know what islamic scholars say.

Here is is if you know how to read Arabic:
صالح بن عبد بن ماسح بن عبيد بن حاجر بن ثمود بن عابر بن ارم بن سام بن نوح

إبراهيم بن تارخ بن ناخور بن ساروغ بن ارغو بن فالَع بن غابر بن شالخ بن قينان بن ارفخشذ بن سام بن نوح

This shows that Saleh is older than Ibrahim. This is not something I said. It is what Islamic scholars say.
Here are some Islamic sites Arabic:
http://www.sunna.info/Lessons/islam_801.html
http://haltalem.ahlamontada.com/t11-topic
http://www.mekkaoui.net/MaktabaIslamya/Chagsiyat/AR/Rosol/05.htm

I can't believe you are a Muslim and do not know all that.

Am I discussing with the wrong people here?

 

Marx and Engels did nothing. Their book conquered Russia. With a book that goes against human greed (AKA the wants of a people), and unlike the "book of Muhammad" they didn't need Marx and Engels to lead the charge. Marx and Engels were long since dead when the Russian Revolution began. Muhammad couldn't even pull off a POSTHUMOUS revolution.

Secondly, I'll put the secular and antagonistic accounts of the founding of the USSR up against the hadiths any day. The accounts of the Russian Revolution were written by people who were NOT COMMUNIST. The accounts of Muhammad's conquests were written by muslims. And don't start with me -- unless you have a time machine, you have no more evidence than I do. The Hadiths and Sunna are books. I have photographs of the Russian Revolution.

I'm interested in seeing where you move the goalposts on this one.

 

Response: The better question to ask is are you programmed to be delueded, or perhaps being paid to be. For after you presented the surah, you only helped to debunk yourself. For nothing above mentions, as you say, say that "The Quran and prophet Mohammed say that prophet Saleh lived before Abrahim who lived around the 18th century BC.". There is no mention from the Qur'an verses, as you have just proven, any mention of Ibrahim or Salih living around 18th century BC. Thanks for proving my point and debunking yours.

So we can conclude that your continuous claim of knowing knowledge of islam because you used to be a muslim actually demonstrates that you know absolutely nothing, despite the claim of being a muslim. Thanks for the confirmation.

 

Response: Once again, we see you claim that Marx and Engels answered the challenge, but when asked of what proof do you have, your logic is "Because a book says so", which is clearly false logic. Debunked as usual. For saying so is not proof that it is so. Furthermore, if such ws the case, then according to your very logic, islam is true and the Qur'an is the true word of Allah. Why? Because a book says so. Debunked yet again.

Lastly, the evidence you present is hearsay, while the challenge I present provides a hands-on eyewitness account as evidence. Hearsay is not more credible than an eyewitness account. Debunked a third time. And as the eyewitness account proves, it shows that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. So not only is your evidence weak becuse it is hearsay, it is proven from an eyewitness account to be fictional hearsay. Debunked a fourth time. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah. Debunked as usual.

 

If "laws have arrived according to the changing eras and evolution of mankind," then I could not consider laws that would take a kid who has some chemical imbalance (and needs a pill for bipolar) to the council to be killed for being unruly, as holy, like uncounted thousands maybe were killed. I cannot accept wrong instructions as holy, especially if the book claims to be more than written by flawed human men.

I can accept an inspired man may be wrong, and expect his scripture to have flaws, I cannot accept that God would be wrong or deceptive.

I find it peculiar that God would know the Romans were using a corrupted Latin Vulgate, and would tell the contemporaries of the time who must have known about Jerome's version to say anything like this:

"O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."

If the book says such and such, and "one can't just take what fits and leave the rest," I guess personally bartering with God for the life of modern Lut in the Gomorrah of terrorist Gaza, where they shove salami bombs up their Sodomite butts, is out of the question. Certainly there is no dispute, it is talking about us at least standing fast by the Law, regardless of the Gospel is the injeel or whatever.

A book I read from a Muslim a couple of decades ago said, "hypocracy is the most hated of God."

"not Allah's commands.
man telling 'himself' what to do."

"Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord."

Are those Allah's commands or not? Even changing the word "Gospel" into anything else or the word "Torah" into "law" is meaningless. When it was said, and he was told to say it, and when it was written, and it was written, it would have been accepted according to the evolved Vulgate or the Torah or law of the time.

If God "guides whom He pleases to the right way" [24.46] then what is that, some sort of spirit or something?

"16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[a] in you." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14:16-17&version=NIV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible/passage.aspx?q=John+14:16+&t=vul&t2=kjv

If "one can't just take what fits and leave the rest," or apply a single law (Golden Rule) when there is any doubt on an issue that has evolved, or maybe just ask God for direction, which was what the Holy Spirit or comforter Jesus was talking about is all about, any book that has more than the Golden Rule, a single wrong instruction which is claimed to be from God, I just do not think rightious people of the human race can logically accept such a seriously flawed book or so-called prophet as a comforter. It is somewhat sad that God controls the clouds but cannot write, then again Jesus never said he controls the clouds.

 

This proves to me that you are not really a muslim at all, or you are a muslim by name only.

I have been a muslim until only recently, and I know what a muslim should know, and you know nothing about the religion you claim to follow.

If I am wrong then tell me how should a muslim pray according to the Quran?

 

Don't yell, OK.. its too hard on my old eyes.

The last time I had a conversation about faith with a Saudi man.. he chuckled and said.. "Don't think you can talk with one Muslim and know Islam"...

The same can be said of Christians, habibi.

 

Response: In other words, after claiming that the Qur'an states that Ibrahim lived in the 18th century BC, only to quote verses that mention no such thing, you now want to divert the subject from your fallacious claims? Sorry, but I don"t entertain the deluded. I expose them.

 

LOL you exposed nothing.

I gave you proof from your own Quran you claim to know so much about, says that Saleh is older than Moses, then I gave you several ISLAMIC!!! websites that says Saleh is older than Ibrahim, then you state it is all wrong?

You are pathetic.

It did not take very long to expose you at all!!!

Poor thing, you just got exposed by someone who descended from the same people who invented Islam, and knows far more about it than you do.

So time for you to stop defending a religion you know nothing about. lol

 

Response: To the contrary, you made a claim that Ibrahim lived in the 18th century BC and stated that it was mentioned in the Qur'an, then provided several verses, none of which stated anything about 18th century BC. You debunked yourself without me having to do anything.

So once again, your own weak logic proves that you know nothing and only made an embarrassment of yourself, as ecpected. Debunked as usual.

 

You have been exposed:

http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/225149-islam-hopeless-part-ii-4.html#post4976339