Challenge "the quran"

You need to stop reading what other people say, read the Quran yourself, and come up with your own thoughts, I think.

You forget that when verses of the Quran were revealed to Mohammed SAW, they were given as a guide for Muslims in certain times.

The context of verses 2:256 and 9:5, 9:29 are very different. They do not contradict each other.

2:256 is speaking about all times, there is no compulsion in religion.

9:5 is a specific time period, when Mohammad SAW and the Muslims were fighting against the Pagans (polytheists) who were persecuting and killing Muslims, and refused to make peace treaties or broke these treaties.

9:29 is a period when Muslims were fighting against the People of the Book.

I fail to see how these verses contradict 2:256 when it is about a specific time. You need to understand the context of the verses in the Quran.

Consider this verse: [2:190] "Fight in the cause of Allah those against those who fight you, but do not transgress, for Allah loves not the transgressor.

That would then contradict the other two, but if you understand the context of the other two you would see they have followed this verse.



If you are going to read other peoples opinions, which is okay too I'm not saying everybody is wrong, it would be common sense to stay away from anti-Islamic website, such as WikiIslam and Answering-Islam.... Most of the time they just twist things to make it look bad, like with this example you provided. There are many other websites out there to learn. I can't stress that enough, to learn about what you are talking about. You won't do that by using WikiIslam and AI...

سلام

 

Please try and take the topic seriously. It is a logical fallacy to suggest that because something can not be disproven this constitutes proof of your premise. ( That we can not prove the core some distant planet revolving around some distant star is not made of green cheese does not constitute proof that this planets core is made of green cheese)

Second - I am not the one making the claim. The onus is on you to prove your claim that it is an absolute 100% certainty that the Qur'an is the word of God.

Merely comming up with just one plausible alternative puts your claim into question. It is you that somehow has to prove that there are no plausible, or even implausible, alternatives in order to substantiate your claim.

The question is about conquering a nation and the ability to use speech to motivate people. Pagan just means that folks believed in other Gods. The fact that folks change from one God to anotherthese days although the mechanisms to keep folks "converted" were vastly improved over the millenia.

Christianity took hold and spead just as did Buddhism , Confucianism, and so on. Jesus was hated but it is a fact that "the mob" tends to initially hate any ideas and in particularly "religious" ideas that conflict with current dogma which only shows that the raging masses are closed minded.

You do raise an intersting point however. The staying power of Islam (not that this can not be said about other religions) has been quite profound. That a religion caught on and suceeded

That someone builds a better mousetrap, in this case "developing a better system of control such that folks maintain their beliefs" is not proof of Godly origin but I do want to explain further how this process works.

Mind Control and control over the mob is both Science and Art. It has been studied practiced and refined by Kings, Religious leaders and Military leaders for thousands of years.

Instilling certain belief systems was found to be very effective in controlling people. People tend to copy what works. The focus of this topic is how Religious beliefs were and are used.

If you study mind control you will find that one of the principles is to develop mechanisms to keep adherents from questioning the beliefs that serve to keep these adherents under control.

The Egyptians had the idea of "maat".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat

It was thought that in the aftelife ones deeds were weighted and if one was found wanting that person was fed to a monster and that was it. Fear of "bad consequences" if one misbehaved in this life served to help maintain a belief system that lasted over 3000 years.

We see this "fear of bad consequences" used as a platform for secular control as well. This doctrine was used effectivly by Stalin, Hitler (fatherland security as opposed to homeland security), and more recently by Bush (fear of terrorism) to exert social control.

One of the most effective ways to keep people from questioning Religious beliefs is to scare the living daylights out of them. Teach them from birth that is you do not believe and/or do (X and Y) very bad things will happen.

The idea of being fed to a monster is a terrifying idea (especially to a child). How much more terrifying is the idea of "eternal and everlasting punishment torment and torture" to a young child ? .. and what is the mental impact over time.

After being exposed to such trama a large percentage of folks will not question certain core beliefs just because of subconscious factors. Their minds will cling to the most irrational arguments in order to avoid facing the terrible fear. ( Such as claiming that they are 100% certain that every word in a book comes directly from God or that because you can not prove the core of a distant planet is not made of green cheese it must be so)

The few that do manage to obtain sufficient enlightenment to question these beliefs does not matter. As long as a high percentage of the "raging masses" is maintained do not question the doctrine has exceeded and control is maintained.

Christianity really ramped up the fear factor by introducing ideas of "eternal punishment" for deviating from the faith. (Rather than the threat of "behave yourself or be fed to a monster")

The Qur'an goes even further. Horrible threats of everlasting punishment for are found on almost every second page. Do this and be burned in eternity, believe this or suffer everlasting torment. Over and over and over.

What we can see here is the evolution of the science and art of control. Not the work of God.

Some questions thinking folks might ask are:
Why would God be such a nasty fellow?
Why would an all powerfull being wish to torture so many of his creations?

If an all powerfull entity wanted a to create a creature that did nothing but worship it, why not just create them as robots?

Perhaps God is conducting a grand experiment - perhaps one of many being conducted by other Gods on other planets.

Perhaps God collected the results of this experiment long ago and does not really care much about happens in the future, leaving earth to its own devices. A forgotten test tube in God's laboratory.

There is no way to be 100% certain and any thoughts to the contrary are the result of being brainwashed as a child or an adult unless one has actually met God face to face.

 

Claiming "a book says something" and claiming "every word in the Book is the word of God" are two different claims.

There is evidence, historical (same thing said by unrelated sources), archaeological, scientific, and so forth.

I do not think there is a single Historian that thinks all of written history is "100% accurate/true"

Perhaps there were a few Inspired words, or many even, in books written from time to time.

Who knows ?

The idea here is that one can not be 100% sure. In the case of much of history, including the Qur'an, the ideas proposed are mere speculation and do not even come close to 100% certainty.

The only evidence for the claim that the Qur'an was written by God is the Claim of one person who lived over 1000 years ago. Many many folks have made such claims .. some obtained a large following some did not.

The best evidence that the Qur'an was not 100% written by God is in the Qur'an itself and studying the History of Muhammad and Islam.

 

The evidence that it is the word of Allah SWT is the Quran itself. It's in the literary level of the Quran, something that has never been matched. In the Quran, Allah SWT challenges the people who question the Quran to make even one verse similar to it. Even to this day, not one person has been able to do it. Add with that the scientific facts of the Quran, things that are being discovered today, further proves that it was not the word of any man.

The only proof against the claim is what certain people say, who twist the Quran or refuse to accept its divine.

سلام

 

those questions have been asked by me.
and many more... all answered by the qur'an.
believe me most of the things that you've asked
here were my start up questions.

you seem to be an intelligent human being.
all i can say is don't stop your digging.

if you want me to answer anything i'll try.
but things also depend on personal experience.

100% certitude depends on you, not on facts.

you want the knowledge of the unseen.
but the unseen is not revealed for a reason.

one might see someone that (s)he loves fall in the niagara falls
and think (s)he is not dead... why? because (s)he is still not found.
but the fact is there, unchanged. your perception and belief does
not change the fact.

watch this if you have the time.
this guy was an atheist. you seem to have similar questions.

lastly;
you said governments and kingdoms control minds.
and i agree with you. they use any possible means, including religion
to mass-manipulate people... but for your information, muhammed (saw)
was not a part of a kingdom. he rejected power and wealth many times
when people offered him in order to stop islam.

the idols were also a source of revenue and social security for some.
they were using religion for revenue. nothing changed eh? :8

tortures, assassination attempts, insults, humiliations to him...
for what? what was the motivation?

"O my uncle,
i swear by Allah,
if they put the sun in my right hand
and the moon in my left
in return for my giving up this cause,
i would not give it up
until Allah makes truth victorious,
or i die in his service."

- muhammed (saw)​

islam bashes exactly what you complain in your post:
social madness, following the nonsense and believing
falsely that you are "free" when you are in fact serving
your unknown "masters".

something to look up perhabs.

be well.

 

I appreciate that you seem to have actually read my post. The few questions I listed were very simple and just the tip of the iceburg and I will say a bit on this later.

I do not want nor require knowledge of the unseen, nor to I portend to know the reason why or why not things have been revealed. The idea here is that if one asks even the most basic questions it is quickly revealed that there is no 100% certitude that the whole of the Qur'an, or any other book is directly authored by God.

I have never been an athiest and have a very strong conviction/belief in God.

Part of that conviction includes the belief that God is not stupid.

That an all powerfull being, knowing that there is no evidence of his/her specific existence (belief in a specific God named Allah as opposed to general belief in a God), condemning a soul to eternal punishment for the act of "questioning" ... Is beyond absurd

If God really wanted folks to not question his specific existence he would just show up and say "Hey folks" guess what .. Im real !

Obviously, God wants us find truth on our own and not have it dicated. For this purpose he gave us a brain and the ability to question and perhaps even some divine guidance.

It would completely defeat the purpose of "us finding the truth on our own", being able to discern good from bad, by God showing up and stating, with 100% absolute certainty... A, B, C, D F.

There are numerous "prophets" that rejected wealth and so on .. as common as common can be. Surely you have heard of Buhddism, Sufism and so on.

What I urge you to question is "how" governments and kingdoms control minds and how it occured that so much evil has been done in the name of God and if you think that this was what God intends.

With just two simple principles these evils could have been avoided.

1) No human speaks for God This includes Imam's, Popes, and those claiming to be able to interpret "the truth" of scripture.

2) There is a difference between having a belief and forcing that belief on others. (Do unto others as you would have them do to you .. is a similar idea)

Look at the horrific atrocities committed by the Catholic Church - even issuing Papal Bulls "requiring" torture.

Torture of who ? In many cases "Those that do not agree with our version of doctrine"

How was this justified ? The Pope speaks for God, I am the Pope and I claim that God says .. bla bla bla. In many cases it was Jews who were persecuted or those that merely had a different interpretation of scripture and of course those that did not believe or believed in other religions.

We seen the same justification used in Islam. Imam says God says .. bla bla bla .. issue a Fatwa or lets make laws forcing folks to adhere to what we claim is Gods law.

Is it your belief that God thinks religion should be forced on folks ?

What is the point of posting this .. there is nothing profound here, nothing that has not been said a million times over by others and in hundreds of hollywood movies.

If Islam bashes this "social madness" then why do the people of Islam support so much "social madness" ?

It is my claim that those who "claim to speak for God" and then use this claim to force their beliefs on others that is the social madness.

Does Islam relally bash this "social madness" ?

 

Response: To the contrary, your ducking and dodging to answer the challenge confirms your denial to the fact that the qur'an is the true word of Allah. Otherwise, you would not be running form the challenge, but answering the challenge. Furthermore, the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. Thus your alleged proof that the challenge has been answered fails, for your evidence relies on "it's true because a book says so", which is clearly weak to a hands-on eyewitness account. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah.

 

Philosophy is not materialistic. If there is any material evidence that can help answer a question, then studying it is within the realm of science, not philosophy. Most questions cannot be answered by science because humans are still weak and ignorant. That is why philosophy exists.

Philosophy created religion as an answer to questions which cannot be studied using material evidence.


When a human being is healthy and strong, he tends to ignore religion and tries to enjoy life to the fullest, but the moment he becomes sick and frail, he tries to imagine that there is a supreme being who can make him healthier and stronger. If that supreme being does not give him strength, then the 2nd best thing for him to do is to think that this supreme being is going to reward him with a better life after he dies.

Religion flourished because it gave humans hope. It led them to believe that this short life has a purpose. This my friend is the product of philosophy.


To say that philosophy is against religion is like trying to prevent it from creating any other religion but your own. Although Philosophy has many flaws (such as religion) it formed many theories which helped science develop and grow.

Ibn rushd, Alrazi, Ibn sina and many many more thinkers and scientists could have never been able to delve into science without forming theories using philosophical thinking, but to do that, they had to liberate their minds from religion. That is why most Muslim scientists and thinkers were Muslims by name only.

Now back to your answer about the purpose of life.


Humans everywhere are the same. After all, they did originate from the same ancestor. That is why no nation existed without following a religion, because it helped give them a purpose. Islam is only one of the religions created by humans.

The Quran said that only Islam is the right religion, and all non-muslim are going to hell. Although Mohammed might have pardoned those humans who died before he invented his new religion, he never pardoned anyone who was alive or lived after the creation of Islam. That is why he sent messengers to the nations and tribes he knew existed, but in the end he is only a human. That is why he could have never been able to know that there are far more humans than in the ones he knew about.

If your prophet had told his followers that there are humans in the Americas, wrote that in his book and sent a messenger to them, I and every other human on earth would be Muslim right now, for we would have never doubted that he was indeed a prophet sent by God, but he did not. Why? because he is no prophet. This my friend is material evidence, and has nothing to do with philosophy.

 

Your answer is vague and incomprehensible to me.

If secularism is what you seek, then you will be considered an infidel by most Muslims.

In that case, I see no reason to argue with you, as we both aim for the same thing.

As for uniting all muslims, it will happen when they are not muslim anymore. Until then, a muslim's greatest enemy is another muslim.

 

Allah gave every Muslims no more reason to fear going to hell for killing Christians, Jews and all who stand in Mohammed's way of world conquest Sura 9, in fact Allah have conform that every Muslim warrior who die in killing infidels will be rewarded that was the incentive that motivated the thousands of illiterate Arabs of that time to fight because they have nothing to fear but everything to gain to paradise.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeLRg1Myilg&lc=lzXNCyxHD4WNzQaKmmIbTIlUX__6iBOrTYprrRMw8-w&context=C327f325ADOEgsToPDskKhl8bWOxlWRLs3Kc8dZm3K"]How do you differantiate the Afghan War against Russia & current war of Talibans against PAK USA? - YouTube[/ame]

A good explanation by a Sufi Iman in explaining of what is consider self defence and what is not.

 

It can not be because Allah should never abrogate His own revelation especially in a short period of time. I can understand after 1000 years but within 40 years that is not reasonable especially when what is being abrogated replace with violent verses. Only man makes mistake and the abrogation revelation was from a man to make it appear that it was from Allah.

 

Response: Yet nothing in surah 9 mentions Muhammad being driven to conqest, but rather self-defense to the drive of conquest by non-muslims. For in surah 9, we see that verse 13 says that it was the non-muslims who attacked first. And wheb we consider non-muslim sources themselves and analyze the christian conquest of Native Americans and the African slave trade that is the root of the current western societies, it is clear that the non-muslims were driven by conquest, not the muslims. Yet their drive to do so can not overtake the plan of Allah, making Muhammad (saw) successful in battle against their desire of imperialism.

 

Surah Maidah 5:32:
"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land."

 

100% certitude in this life is: birth and death.
the rest is relative. depending on your perspective.

what is before birth?
what is after death?

the existentialist questions will get you moving.
and qur'an starts to answer those in the very beginning
at surah baqara (second chapter).

2:30
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels,
"Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They
said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and
sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah
said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

and it goes on.
the video i gave you, elaborates on that.​

i've never said that.
i was talking about dr. jeffrey lang.
but it may look like i implied it.
i didn't, just to clear things out.
not my duty to label people, unless
they claim otherwise.

it isn't 'a god' named Allah.
it is Allah, the God.
one and only.
nothing further, nothing beyond.
no other deity.
"the" creator.
"the" sustainer.
"the" provider.
"the" ultimate truth.

questioning is not punished.
rejecting the one who created you and who gave
you specific tasks in this life, is.

wait for the day of resurrection for that.

exactly.

who decides what is good or bad?
what is your reference point?
yourself? your 'inner' good?

i might have another reference point then:
myself and my aunt who happens to be
a very noble and kind person.

qur'an is the reference point of Allah (God).
your manuel, if you will...

it's a matter of trust.
you are meant to trust your creator.
you can't be sure first and have a leap of faith afterwards.
where is the trust in there? where is the reward of that
beautiful relationship based on trust?

everyone can believe with 100% certitude.

10:99
And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed
- all of them entirely. Then, [O Muhammad], would you compel
the people in order that they become believers?

13:31
And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would
be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead
would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an], but to
Allah belongs the affair entirely. Then have those who believed
not accepted that had Allah willed, He would have guided the
people, all of them? And those who disbelieve do not cease to
be struck, for what they have done, by calamity - or it will
descend near their home - until there comes the promise of Allah.
Indeed, Allah does not fail in [His] promise.​

according to a hadith
there have been 124.000 to 224.000 prophets from the first
prophet adam (pbuh) to the seal of all prophets muhammed (saw).

they all carried the same message.
so that's normal that they rejected wealth.

we have only 25 (2 prophets revealed in the qur'an.

11:29 (this is noah -pbuh-)
And O my people, I ask not of you for it any wealth. My reward
is not but from Allah . And I am not one to drive away those who
have believed. Indeed, they will meet their Lord, but I see that
you are a people behaving ignorantly.

10:72 (again noah -pbuh-)
And if you turn away [from my advice] then no payment have I
asked of you. My reward is only from Allah , and I have been
commanded to be of the Muslims."

26:109 (again noah -pbuh-)
And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only
from the Lord of the worlds.

26:127 (this is hud -pbuh-)
And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only
from the Lord of the worlds.

26:145 (this is salih -pbuh-)
And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only
from the Lord of the worlds.

26:180 (this is shu'ayb -pbuh-)
And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only
from the Lord of the worlds.

34:47-48 (this is muhammed -saw-)
Say, "Whatever payment I might have asked of you - it is yours.
My payment is only from Allah , and He is, over all things, Witness."

Say, "Indeed, my Lord projects the truth. Knower of the unseen."

Say, "The truth has come, and falsehood can neither begin
[anything] nor repeat [it]."

and many more times it was mentioned.
this is the common language of all prophets.​

and sufism is not a religion.
thus they don't have prophets. they accept muhammed (saw).
it is a deviation (a mystical dimension if you will) from islam.

it was done in the name of "interest", not God.
religions have been used, is still being used.

1) agreed. that's why there is no clergy representing God or
speaking on behalf of God in islam. no one can speak on behalf
of Allah, except the prophet (saw).

2) there is no compulsion in religion. not in islam.

again, imam quotes scriptures and hadith.
if he goes beyond the limit and misinterprets the verses
according to his agenda... then he is in big trouble.

i am a muslim.
and there is no compulsion in islam's doctrine.
i can quote you many verses from our book.

if you say so.

that's social psychology 101.
the need to be a flock.
and e superior to others by using a superior force.

it does.

 

and that answers what exactly?

no, people erasing the religion (the path) from their minds
produced the need of philosophy, hence philosophy produced
pantheons and shirk.

glad to see you agree with the qur'an

10:22-23
It is He who enables you to travel on land and sea until, when you
are in ships and they sail with them by a good wind and they rejoice
therein, there comes a storm wind and the waves come upon them
from everywhere and they assume that they are surrounded, supplicating
Allah, sincere to Him in religion, "If You should save us from this, we
will surely be among the thankful."

But when He saves them, at once they commit injustice upon the
earth without right. O mankind, your injustice is only against yourselves,
[being merely] the enjoyment of worldly life. Then to Us is your return,
and We will inform you of what you used to do.​

but to you that's a psychological play to trick us right?

man has flows.
man keeps using his intellect to go on his own.
forgetting the one who gave it to him.

sure.
in oxford and sorbonne sina is in the founding manifestos.
islam+hellen brought "reform" to europe's deviated religion.

not as intended.
it should have been islam.

that's why it's unique?

where did they teach you islam?
muhammed (saw) was a prophet.
he mentioned many times he cannot do anything unless
Allah permits him. it is Allah who pardons. not prophets.

with this paragraph you've lost your whole credibility to me.
you have no idea what the doctrine of islam is.

deviation is a human habit.
check people's lives.
psychology 101: following own desires and thoughts.

"sit down", i say.

and you won't sit down.

is this what you got from the whole post?
either i have a terrible english or
you are still speaking to yourself.
not to me.

be well.

 

Sura 9:1 state that Allah issue an ultimatum to the infidels to submit to the treaty. Meaning, the infidels were coerce or enter into treaty with Mohammed under duress. Very similar to the Afghan war; Mohammed represent the Taliban and al Qaeda waging an aggressive, unwarranted and unjust war against the Afghans in total violation of Sura 2:256 and Sura 18:29. Mohammed waging unjust war against the Byzantine.

After Sura 9:1, Mohammed continue to with Sura 9:2 - 25 totally contradicting and eventually abrogating Sura 2:256 and 18:29 without Allah's permission, no where in the Quran did Allah said to abrogate Sura 2:256 and 18:29.

Muslims have committed a serious haram by claiming that the quran is the word of Allah, no where in the quran did Allah ever gave any instruction to write a new book. The instruction was very clear "Irqa" meaning read or recite then Allah continue with Sura 10:37 and 10:94 advising Mohammed or Muslims to consult the people of the book and to confirm what is being reveal conforms with the book that book is the Bible, thus the true word of Allah is in the Holy Bible, Muslims are not suppossed to write a new book but to recite, submit or read from the book that was reveal before to Moses, Exodus 17:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven." Allah have already instructed Moses to write everything down so that men of the future will not forget and this is the same book that Allah wants Mohammed to read, recite and submit to.

 

I am still waiting Moslim.

 

wanren,
iqra, not irqa.

divinecomedy,
muslim, not moslim.

 

Sorry Muslim I do not bow to Moslems, Moslims, or Musselmen. I am a freeman.

Logically only the fifth column, which I have zero respect for, has a reason to refuse to answer the question.

Feel free to answer the question yourself, but it would be useless, as there is no threat that you are fifth column.

 

what is the purpose of posting this?
the idea is to exchange idea or vomit anger?

perhaps you misunderstood the whole concept of forums.

 

Ideas do not need Visas to cross borders.

Wrong ideas in bad books and from Satanic Verses produce anger and death within nations and between them.

Forums that require we not say what we or what someone else may think of a bastard creed or a false prophet are not free people's forums, they are as afraid of scary mouths and free speech as any bastard faith or forum would be.

{insert cartoon of MoHamMad here}

 

ok, be well.

 

rhyme change in surah maryam
short video giving an example about the excellence of the qur'an.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTdCeqlXauU"]Nouman Ali Khan - Rhyme change in Surah Maryam - Steps To Paradise - YouTube[/ame]



brilliance of the book
detailed linguistic explanation of the qur'an

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNu3huTMFmA"]Brilliance of The Book - Nouman Ali Khan - YouTube[/ame]

​

 

Numerous responses were given which answered the challenge and refuted your premise. Others with beliefs similar to yours did respond however and a fruitful discussion resulted.

It is unfortunate that you failed to comprehend. The evidence I presented relies on thousands of eyewitness accounts. History is full of examples of folks rising up and overthrowing a nation due to the speech of a charismatic leader.

The second place where your argument fails is the assumption that human speech causing a people to rise up and overthrow a nation represents evidence for God.

 

start another this exceded 500 posts!!!