Challenge "the quran"

i know you are not basing your knowledge on britannica
and especially not on wikipedia.
you just provided the links in order to point out the data.

that being said,
external anachronism –even if it exists- should not be a source of disbelief.
nor orientalist/biased theories. let me tell you why…

history is not a 100% reliable science.
you may ask which science is?

i personaly witnessed many false knowledge in history books
-even about the near history.
in high school class books where there are "known facts" or
even in academical papers, i’ve read bunch of stuff that were not true.

example:
go to the boston university, ask them why the huge map in the entrance
of one of their administrative buildings shows turkey’s east part is divided
between 'kurdistan' and 'armenia'. while all other countries borders are
carefully updated. (kurdistan is not even a legitimate country).

it is intentional or unintentional, they have agendas or not...
i have no idea. but it is how it is.

history is sum of theories based on all the supporting evidence gathered so far.
as much as the discovery and the advancement in science lets you,
add this the human erring filter of a scientist = your knowledge.

you are at the end of the queue.
if you wanna get clean water,
don't count on other people's buckets.
you go and dig a well.

“as far as we know” is not reliable to me.
i’d rather take the word of Allah for it.
than relying on erring and manipulative humans.

as in the known example of the “haman”;
mentioned six times in the qur’an (28:6, 28:8, 28:38, 29:39, 40:24, 40:36).

people used to mock about it.
“you got the story wrong when copying from bible”, they said.

haman had a different location/era according to the bible,
and according to the western historians.
but in the qur’an he was sided with the pharaoh.

well, guess what?
an archeological discovery proved the qur’an right.
i will summarize the view with sharing “videos”…
since hearing is faster than reading for most people.
the information is correct, look it up yourself after watching these:

http://tinyurl.com/7tcbbc2
http://tinyurl.com/7wgztzs

qur’an is even precise about distinguishing the pharaoh and king.
depending on their eras.

for instance in the era of moses (pbuh) the ruler is called pharaoh,
but in the era of joseph (pbuh) it is called the king.

why distinguish? just call them all king, or ruler.
who will say anything about it?

accuracy.
as intended.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/josephdetail.html

all that is required is a trip to the library
which is sometimes sufficient to bring clarity to the issues.

but my question is:
what will you do if they say that "according to new discoveries"
the information given in the qur'an is in fact true.

will you then revert?

if you abandon/reapply your faith according to every scientific update,
then you are not using your heart, reasoning and other given senses.

mere mind will let you down.
sooner or later.

maybe this wasn't an answer you were looking for,
about this specific minutiae.
but this is how i comprehend things based on my theological
research experience.

This issue is addressed in the surah taha.
In the dialogue between pharaoh and moses (pbuh).

You know the passage…
When the pharaoh asks: “qale fe ma balul qurunil ula”.

20:49-52
[Pharaoh] said, "So who is the Lord of you two, O Moses?"
He said, "Our Lord is He who gave each thing its form and then guided [it]."
[Pharaoh] said, "Then what is the case of the former generations?"
[Moses] said, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord neither errs nor forgets." ​

Read my previous explanation about the matter:
Http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/222879-if-christianity-true.html#post4860872

The follow up question:
Http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/222879-if-christianity-true.html#post4863359

The follow up answer to the question:
Http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/222879-if-christianity-true-2.html#post4866244

my humble advice is:
do not blend your past or your bad experiences with people
get in to your way and determine your truth.

islam encourages people to think.
in fact following people blindly is a form of shirk.
you know what that means… the only sin that is not forgiven.

islam is in nobody’s monopoly.
ask questions, be sincere.
seek guidance.

the people who shush you,
maybe because they didn't know themselves.

yes ignorance.
it is a relative term.
but one thing is for sure;
it is not about the number of books you’ve read.
it never is.

 

it's like the question about destiny, isn't it?

if God knew what was gonna happen,
then why am i putting any effort in life anyway?
thus i am not gonna do anything. stand still.

but God also knew i was not gonna do anything.
so what is it that i must understand here?​

yes the books have been altered. as stated before.
what you are holding in your hands as taurat and injeel
are corrupted books. they do not contain the original message.

thus, you cannot know what the true rulings were.
how they have been renewed or left the same.
you may have a glimpse of the original message.

and that glimpse is what makes most people's faith going.
but at some point they are expected to question things...
seek the truth, do not postpone asking questions about matters
that are incoherent or illogical. in qur'an you are encouraged to
think and literally "run" after knowledge.

the dedication of the companions of the prophet (saw) for knowledge:

ali ibn abi talib (ra) said;
"i am a slave of he who teaches me one letter
of the alphabet. if he wishes, he may sell me;
if he so desires, he may set me free; and if he
cares to, he may deploy me as a slave" ​

slave?
in exchange for one letter?

they refused to rely on traditions,
on what society dictated them,
on what the majority did repeatedly,
and on what their forefathers have been doing.

a basic believer is expected to do the same.
not obey without question what people tells you.
that's why we don't have a "pope".

many ayahs in the qur'an telling you to how to approach
to matters psychologically and methodically when seeking guidance.

so unless you get in to the nature of things,
you are not in the logic.

he isn't.
it's man who finds comfort in thinking that way.
letting go of the responsibility, accusing his creator.

self-criticism is encouraged in the qur'an.

the law of qur'an.
the unchanged word of Allah.

why did he give us the ability?
to learn. to reach to conclusions?
with clear intellect and clear conscience?

they are the ones who will get the most severe punishments.
they are at the lowest place in hell, lower than disbelievers.

a disbeliever is clear.
he made it clear to himself and to the world.

a believer is clear too.
he is dedicated to Allah and he lives by his laws.

both have big banners over their head,
picked their sides. walking on...

hypocrisy is indeed the lowest form of ethics.
people who think they can fool everyone...
sure they can, but can they fool Allah?

they are in fact fooling themselves.

true and then what does it say in the surah?

5:69-73
Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad]
and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians -
those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and
did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will
they grieve.

We had already taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and
had sent to them messengers. Whenever there came to them a
messenger with what their souls did not desire, a party [of messengers]
they denied, and another party they killed.

And they thought there would be no [resulting] punishment, so they
became blind and deaf. Then Allah turned to them in forgiveness; then
[again] many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is Seeing of
what they do.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son
of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah ,
my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah -
Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are
not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three."
And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what
they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a
painful punishment.
​

do you see the distinction?
the ones who believed in the original message
and the ones going after the alterted one.

making scholars, councils and monks their Lord.

in the same surah:

5:47
And let the People of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein.
And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those
who are the defiantly disobedient.​

again in the same surah...

5:17
They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son
of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended
to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the
earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth
and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is
over all things competent.​

result:

22:17
Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and
the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who
associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of
Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness.

45:17
And We gave them clear proofs of the matter [of religion]. And they
did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous
animosity between themselves. Indeed, your Lord will judge between
them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they
used to differ.​

what is the golden rule?

something like this:
we mostly focus on the stains,
and complain we can't see behind the glass?

or maybe like this:
mehmet learn to write in short my eyes hurt.

 

Newspapers are hearsay, while propaganda accounts are truth? Really? And PS you have nothing like this for the Islamic Revolution (http://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...=moz2-ytff-upgrd&sz=all&va=russian+revolution) -- actual photographs of the event. And that event was CAUSED BY HUMAN CREATED LANGUAGE. Not only that, it happened AFTER the death of the authors of said language. Muhammad had to conquer everybody himself, Marx and Engels had to write a book and have it published.

Now since I won your challenge, with a book and photographic evidence, I suggest you either produce YOUR proof which to be equal to mine need photographic evidence -- or you quit pretending that I haven't proven my case.

Of course, you'll just move the goal posts and declare victory as usual.

 

Thank you

Your reply is far better than Fatihak who obviously has no idea what she is talking about.

I hope the discussion with you will be much more fruitful.



If you mean historians who only look into what books have said and gather their evidence from the folklore then I would agree with you.

Regarding Mada'in Saleh, we have clear geological (not historical) evidence that show that it was built in the first century BC. Thamudic writings were also found, which were also dated to the same era.

When most historians, archaeologists and geologists agree on something, then the chance that it was a mistake is very slim.

Most (if not all) studies on Thamud, Mada'in Saleh and Saleh himself agree on the time is was built. You will find that not even Muslim historians and geologists can refute such evidence.

Notes On The Nabateans
The Miracle Of The Camel
New Pieces of Mada’in Salih’s Puzzle

There are many more studies not available for free, which you could read if you have access to them.

I have yet to find a single article, whether written by a Muslim or non-Muslim, that has a different opinion.

The Quran tells us that Saleh lived before Ibrahim. Ask anyone about when Ibrahim (on e of the oldest prophets of Islam, Christianity ans Jewdiasm) and they will all agree that he lives long before Mada'in Saleh was built, and long before Thamud existed.

This my friend is irrefutable evidence that the Quran made a huge mistake. There is simply no way you can show any evidence that any of what I said is wrong. Go ask Islamic scholars about it if you don't believe me.

The Quran is wrong my friend, and trying to give other examples where you say it was correct does not make this mistake any less obvious.

 

I read extensively about people called "Ahl al-Fatrah". This is a black dot in the teachings of Islam as well as other religions.

Islamic scholars have yet to agree on a single answer to deal with this issue.

All that is not really the main issue though. The issue is that the Quran tells us that we were created to worship Allah, no more, no less.

So, to think that many (if not most) humans were created, and lived all their lives not knowing why they were created is incomprehensible.

Now read about what Islamic scholars have said about what will happen to one type of Ahl al-Fatrah in the afterlife. The children who die before realizing Islam:

Firstly: To withhold regarding them and to refrain from asserting that they will be in Paradise or that they will be in the Fire. Rather, knowledge of them is entrusted to Allaah, the Most High, and what is said regarding them is what the Prophet sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said as occurs in the authentic hadeeth which is agreed upon: ‹Allaah knows best what they would have done›.

Secondly: That they will be in the Fire. This was held by a group of the people of theological rhetoric (al-Mutakallimoon) and of the people of tafseer.

Thirdly: That they will be in Paradise. This was the saying of a group of the people of tafseer, the people of theological rhetoric, and others.

Fourthly: That they will be in a station between the two stations: between Paradise and the Fire. This was the saying of a group of the people of tafseer.

Fifthly: That they are under the Wish and Will (Mashee•ah) of Allaah, the Most High: if He wishes He will punish them and if He wishes He will forgive them.

Sixthly: That they will be servants for the people of Paradise and slaves for them: just like their servants and slaves in the world…

Seventhly: That they have the same ruling as their fathers in this world and the Hereafter and are not separated from them in their ruling in the abode…

Eighthly: And it is what is most correct: That they will be tried on the open plain of the Resurrection; and that a Messenger will be sent to them there and to everyone whom the true call did not reach. Then whoever obeys the Messenger will enter Paradise, and whoever disobeys him will enter the Fire. With this (saying) all of the evidences are harmonised.

This gibberish is one of the main reasons why I left Islam. The fact that the Quran and Hadeeth could not give a clear answer to this huge issue, is unforgivable.

 

I live in the most religious community on earth. The fact that they are wrong (according to what you said) clearly shows that there is something horribly wrong in Islam.

We are the ones who created Islam, so we are the ones who know how to follow it best, so don't tell me that Saudis are not Muslim when they are the ones who invented it in the first place.

 

i showed you the example of "haman".
stating clearly that history makes errors.

i stated other examples sealing the fact that
historians might be biased or unintentionally erroneous.

historians can make errors, sure.
after all we are all humans. we err.

but how about archeology?
especially in our era?
isn't it advanced already?
isn't it free of mistakes?
can't we just rely on it?

i live in turkey.
there are still findings of mesopotamian, aegean
or older civilizations at the excavations...

those researches and excavations are mainly led by western
archeologists. yet an archaeological error is announced
every now and then.

an archaeologist knows as a fact that all the findings and
conclusions are based on assumptions. talk to one. you will
see that they will confirm me.

but why?

here is one of the reasons:
carbon 14 test is "the" test to determine how old
a human bone or an artifact is... "the solid test".

do you think this lab experiement is error proof?
i invite you to read:

"Throughout the conference emphasis was placed on the fact that
laboratories do not measure ages, they measure sample activities.
The connection between activity and age is made through a set of
assumptions... one of the main assumptions of C14 dating is that the
atmospheric radiocarbon level has held steady over the age range to
which the method applies."

Report on 14th Conference, 145 International Scientists, Science,
Vol. 150, p. 1490.(link)​

and read some more here:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html

why would i count on this?
a set of assumptions?
how do i know it's accurate?

i don't. i can't.
not logical to pursue an assumption.

thus i don't count on science as 100% proof.
since science and discoveries change.

science is a bunch of assumptions, theories if you will.
same way, qur'an is to you.

mind that i haven't gotten in the qur'an verses you quoted yet.
i am just covering your side of the story and accepting
your interpretations/claims as facts.

thus i think we shouldn't talk about this matter any longer.

be well...

gotta work now.
i'll get to other stuff soon insa'Allah.

 

What is the mistake?

 

Response: Once again, we see you still ducking the challenge, thus confirming your denial to the fact that the challenge that proves that the qur'an is the true word of Allah is still valid. For the challenge clearly states for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literatue that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible. So have you conquered a nation? NO. Have you conquered the street you live on? NO. Thus you've done absolutely nothing in answering the challenge and have been dodging it from the beginning, debunking your silly claim that you answered the challenge.

Furthermore, the claim that Marx and Engels answered the challenge is fictional hearsay, as your proof that such an event too place is not from your own eyes, but because "a book says so", which is clearly illogical. According to your logic, Big Fot is real. Why? Because a bok says so. Any resonable person can see the sheer foolsihness in such logic. Debunked again. The challenge on the other hand provides an hands-on eyewitness account as proof, thus debunking your evidence because an eyewitness account is more credible than fictional hearsay. Thus you've done nothing in answering the challenge, but rather confirmed that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah. Debunked as usual.

 

The Quran mentioned a prophet called Saleh who died before the prophet Ibrahim who was alive at around the 18th century BC. According to the Quran, Saleh was send to a tribe called Thamud. They were struck by an earthquake, and were exterminated because they killed a she-camel, which Allah sent to them.

The Quran also mentioned a city carved into the mountains.

15:82 Out of the mountains did they hew (their) edifices, (feeling themselves) secure.

The prophet Mohammed visited some tombs carved into the mountains just north of Medina and told his followers that this is where Saleh and his tribe lived and died, and so it became known as "Madain Saleh".

Recent geological (Radiometric) and archaeological (Radiocarbon) studies unanimously agreed that Madain Saleh was build in the 1st century BC, and historians date Thamud's earliest appearance at around the 7th century BC and survived until the 7th century AD.

This proves several things:
1- Saleh (who according to the Quran, presumably died before the 18th century BC) could never have lived in Madain Saleh (which was build in the 1st century BC
2- He could never have been a prophet sent to Thamud because the earliest evidence of their existence was dated more than 1000 years after his death.
3- If Thamud did somehow get struck by an earthquake, then they apparently did not get massacred, for they survived until the 7th century AD.

This story shows that the Quran was written by Mohammed, and is not the words of Allah. He apparently visited the site we today call "Madain Saled" and decided to invent a story about it.

All evidence show that the story of Saleh is a myth.

 

Thank you for explaining it to me.. I have been interested in Madain Saleh for years.. and I have read the story of the she camel previously. I just couldn't put it all together.

Have you seen this?

http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

Not to give offense, but I think most of the ancient stories are myth.

 

Response: To the contrary, Allah knows history more than man and any scholar. So if Allah speaks of Salih, and you speak of Salih that contradicts what Allah states, then all evidence would show that you are wrong, not Allah or the Qur'an.

 

How is that possible?

There is NO evidence for Abraham or the Exodus or Moses... There is NO evidence that Solomon had a large or rich empire.

What has happened is layering myth upon myth.

I suspect the message is the heart of the matter, not the tall tales.

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_nabateans.html

 

the rest as promised:

17:15
whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul.
and whoever errs only errs against it. and no bearer of burdens
will bear the burden of another. and never would we punish until
we sent a messenger. ​

“and never would we punish until we sent a messenger”.
what’s so vague about this?

i do find it quite adequate to disown the certainty of your claims.

look for instance what is written above is enough for me.
i can complete it with my overall understanding of the qur’an.

why do i need to know what exactly will it happen to them.
i know that Allah is the most just and even in cases like this
justice will be executed with no exception.

knowing this is more than satisfying.

yet for you, there is something lacking.
i think the missing piece is not in the scripture nor
will you find it in science.

you living in an islamic environment and giving up
the faith is not something rare.

i know people who spent their lifetime studying
the qur’an and hadith then turned atheist.

i know atheists who lived careless all their lives,
even mocked people who had the tiniest glimpse of a belief.
then they became the most persistent muslims i’ve never known…

maybe you’ve got some answers for me: http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/226407-belief.html

i get that.
you are not very fond of islam.

no… of course, saudis are muslims.

for anyone who states the shehadeh,
the question "are you a true muslim?" is off the table.
you know that.

but the problem at hand is rather the laws of Allah migled with
traditions and people overdoing them by self-righteousness.

islam has not been revealed to a tribe or merely to arabs.
it’s for all mankind.

today, 18% of all muslims are arabs.
so i don’t see how saudis take islam under their own monopoly
just because they happen to live near kabah.

they should first stop serving their oil to u.s.
with a big smiling face.

the qur’an is revealed in arabic.
beautiful language.

muhammed (saw),
the most beautiful person i have ever known.

maybe switch to new questions?
these were really 50%-50%.

 

Response: The Qur'an and Sunnah is the evidence for Abraham and Moses.

 

People can't read in context sometimes--probably people who had a long history of Athena popping out of a head and gods making women pregnant where that makes the offspring a demigod, and they see that some guy is saying a word and saying the word comes from "our Father," or God, and they assume that the word spoken was spoken by a god or demigod:

"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." (John 14:24)

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)

See, only God knows, no God or demigod said so.

Just because Jesus said to go into a closet and pray in private, because hypocrites pray to be seen of and judged by men (out of evil vanity to make a distinction between them and true believers), and to pray to "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name..." does not make any of us demigods, just all children of God.

There is only one God. It is called monotheism for a reason, silly disputes on a Trinity or not, Christianity is still monotheism.

I have a Golden Rule from Jesus only as long as I have a Gospel--the Gospel which we still use now and existed prior to the Koran, regardless of whether you think it contains corruption or not--there is no real problem, as long as this is not in dispute:

"Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord."

The instant that becomes in dispute the following argument exists:

Since the Vulgate existed prior to the Koran, and Allah must have known of its existence in that form, therefore, if I cannot observe the Gospel and be safe praying in a closet instead of like hypocrites who need to keep the conquered in lock step, then the Koran is: 1) corrupted Or 2) not the word of God.

You see the Golden Rule if applied does not kill anyone who is speaking a message. We don't kill Hindus for being really stupid. There is no killing for speaking about beliefs. My father was worshiped as the destroyer god, they got on their knees and worshipped him, for killing of the flies (DDT); the place was so remote they had never seen a white man; have picture of temple that any other man would have been killed for approaching; have picture of woman with starving baby and lots of holy cows and other animals in the picture. Some of us humans, children of God, simply are really wierd, and their mouths are scary, it is only when people start slaying people and taking land of earth forever for a fascist cult, that it becomes a problem.

So any Muslim who came to Christians or Jews and was killed for simple words of faith, the killers were not following the Golden Rule that existed way back then and exists now for those that are believers. Now if the Muslim threatened the Jews or Christians, said embrace Islam, bow down with those who bow down, believe in a false prophet, and be safe from our conquering sword that needs to see you pray to see what side you are on, instead of embrace fellow brothers in faith and be safe on judgment day, that is a different story.

You see this is a threat to believers in God:

"Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad]
and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians -
those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and
did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will
they grieve."

This is a threat to believers in God:

"YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This is not a threat to believers in God:

"Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

This is not a threat to believers in God:

"Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve."

Do you see the distinction?

So which one is it, threat or peace?

To true believers Catholics look as much like idolaters, with their worship of Mother Mary window stains (where someone needs to buy them some Windex® for that "streak-free shine") or Jesus in a plate of spaghetti on a billboard, as Black [red] Stone Idolaters. There really isn't anything true believers can do about people and their idols and things to separate us into groups, bowing this way and then that way so believers are discriminated against by racist tongues.

Golden Rule:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

"But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 19:34)

It is not applied to just believers. Any hint that it would not be applied to a peaceful Polytheistic Egyptian who comes to visit, or is invited to live there during a drought, instantly makes it not applicable as a Golden Rule. That does not mean people have to bring a Trojan Horse into the walls; if you would prevent Shiva loving Hindus from immigrating to Mecca and becoming a majority there and in Saudi Arabia to change the laws...we can have a uniform rule of naturalization to keep out those who do not say:

"O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord."

Sorry Charley, no "Prophet Muhammad" or "Qur'an" meantioned therein; I only have one God and no idols, either icon of prophet or Ayatolla Shiite head or a bad Christian's toilet paper, just belief in God and I read anything that might help me understand things better.

 

So you were AT muhammad's battles? either you are 1400 years old or a liar. I have photographs, you have tears and whining. I've shown dozens of human empires founded by human speech, you cry because it's not me personally. At least my sources aren't 100% from people who thought the USSR was the greatest thing ever. You only have the words of appologists and a book that a man claimed god wrote. You've lost, and all of your ducking, dodging, and goalpost moving does not change the fact that the Communist Manifesto has more than met every word of that challenge. There is no need for me to personally conquer an empire when it's been done, not only by Communists, but by Persian Zoroasterians, Roman Pagans, Mormon settlers, Japanese Buddhists, German Nazis and so on.

We know very well WHY such things happen, it's not Allah, but psychology. The "test" is a farce because you cannot afford to make the test falsifiable. If you did, you already know that the Qu'ran loses to thousands upon thousands of human philosophies, political movements, and guys in lab coats. Either quit pretending that this is a real test of the Qu'ran, or admit that the Qu;ran is not any different than other books that were used to start wars and empires.

Jesus conquered Rome by convincing and converting Roman Pagans, despite 300+ years of persecution. Muhammad killed people for insulting him. You do the math. I say the first is a miracle, and the second is just normal human psychology. Getting people to kill for ideology is easy, getting people to suffer and die for ideology is almost impossible.

 

Response: Once again, we see the deluded muslim dodge the challenge....again. Once again, confirming your denial to the fact that the challenge that proves that the qur'an is the true word of Allah is still valid. The deluded non-muslim continues to back the ridiculous and fictious claim that the Comminist Manifesto, the Persian Zoroasterians, Roman Pagans, Mormon settlers, Japanese Buddhists, German Nazis and so on, all answered the challenge. But watch this. What proof do you have that they answered the challenge? Your answer, "Because a book says so". As any person can see, such logic is sheer idiocy, for saying so is not proof that is is so.

Furthermore, the evidence is hearsay, while the challenge is an eyewitness account. So the redundancy to say that your hearsay is more credible than an eyewitness account is further idiocy, thus debunking your claim again. And since the challenge is an eyewitness account, it proves that your evidence is not only hearsay, but fictional hearsay. So your photos and info proves nothing, for it's only proof of conquest, not conquest in the miraculous manner that Muhammad achieved. Debunked as usual.

Thus the evidence is clear that the Qur'an is from Allah, as the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah. Debunked as usual.

 

Once again the deluded muslim who WASN'T with Muhammad, and thus must use a book, denies the sciences of history and psychology in a desperate attempt to distract the audience from the facts. First off, photographs, newspaper accounts, journals, and motion pictures (all of which we have for the Japanese Empire of WW2, the Russian Revolution, and the German Nazi Empire) despite the rediculous claims of deluded muslims to the contrary, DO count as eyewitness testimony, while the propaganda pieces produced by followers of a movement do not count.

Nazi propaganda is not history, Gerbel's accounts of how the Nazis won because they are right or because they are Aryan do not count as an explanation of Nazi success, unless you are a deluded Nazi. On the same hand, accounts of miraculous signs and wonders witnessed only by people that already believe in said religion do not count because they are biased accounts. Show me a Christian witness of a muslim or buddhist or hindu miracle, and odds are the event happened. Show me a muslim claiming that muslims miracluously managed a battlefield victory and I'll show you a biased account. This is how historical science actually works. An event witnessed by people of different backgrounds shows how and why the event took place. An event witnessed only by one faction tells me what that faction believes but tells me nothing of history.

The Russian Revolution is not debunked as proof of a conquest inspired by words, and this is precisely because of all of the photographs, movies, newspaper articles and so on written by HOSTILE WITNESSES, something that Islam simply cannot produce. Islam has ONLY sunnah and hadiths, both of which were written as propaganda to promote Islam. We have very few records of Muhammad not written by muslims and thus from the viewpoint of history, we have a far better understanding of the miracle of the Communist Manifesto inspiring the Russian Revolution than we do of the Muslim prophet speaking the Islamic Empire into exisitance.

I also see how the deluded muslim has completely ducked and dodged my question about what a muslim has other than books as proof. The truth is that for any event that occurs before one's birth, anything other than the historical record is unavailable. Time machines are precluded by the laws of physics, so absent a "book" of recorded history, we cannot say that anything that happened before our own birth actually happened. I can't even verify that my father was born in the US without a record -- a piece of paper -- showing that he was indeed born in Kansas.

So now comes the part where I suggest that the muslim once again deal with the weight of historical and psychological science rather than do the same ducking and dodging that he's been doing all along. Even though he won't because he knows that dealing honestly in historical science means losing the debate.

 

i think you guys have a great terminology.
i'm not being sarcastic, i'm serious.

 

Let me clarify something very important about Islam which we were taught countless times. Allah created us for one purpose, and only one purpose. He created us to worship him.

The Vast majority of human beings were born and died without ever knowing that fact.

In other words, according to the Quran, the vast majority of mankind lived and died without a purpose. Why? because nobody told them.

Why would Allah create humans without a purpose? Was he just bored and decided to keep himself busy by creating humans without a purpose? Or maybe he created then but forgot to tell them why.

So the question is not only what will happen to them when they die, it is why they existed in the first place.

This is a simple philosophical question which led many great Arabs into becoming agnostics and even atheists (E.G. Ibn Rushd and Al-Razi).

 

You quoted a response from me which was never a question in the first place. You obviously hate how Saudis practice Islam even though they practice the closest thing to what Islam was in the days of prophet Mohammed. That is why their Islam is known as the Salafi sect, which means the practice of Islam exactly the way it was revealed, and to consider the prophet and direct followers a role model to mimic.

Today, Salafis are rapidly gaining ground all over the Muslim world. Alnour party (salafis) in Egypt gained ~25% of legislative votes, while the freedom and justice party (which considers Turkey its role model) gained ~40% of votes.

Turkey is a democratic and secular country which provides freedom of religion to its people, and does not use Sharia as its law. Yet, many Muslim thing that it is a role model for other Muslim countries to follow.


Saudi Arabia on the other hand, refuse democracy because it was never mentioned in the quran.
They refuse secularism because it means that sharia law will not be enforced on the people.
They refuse to stop chopping the hands of thieves because they want to follow the quran by the letter.

I agree that the Quran and Hadeeth need to be reinterpreted so as to be more acceptable to the modern world, but that does not make what they do an less Islamic.

The fact of the matter is, Saudi Arabia is far more Muslim than Turkey. You defend Islam, yet you do not want it to be fully practiced the way it was revealed to us.

How exactly do you want Saudi Arabia (or Turkey for that matter) to do to become a real Islamic country in your opinion?

 

It is sure better than the semitic language group.

Not even the 'gods' could make up their mind on what 'they' wanted to articulate.

But it is nice to know, 'we' can temp you with 'great terminology'.

 

Response: Now the deluded non-muslim reduces his argument to saying that I'm deluded because I don't accept his logic of stating that hearsay evidence is more credible than an hands-on eyewitness account. Any reasonable can see the idiocy in such a claim, making your argument fail once again. So once again, your own weak logic supports the fact that the qur'an is the true word of Allah, as the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah. Debunked as usual.

 

What you have been posting is heresay. The majority of your posting is just garbage.

Hands-on eyewitness account is that mankind created the book quran, not a god. ie.... name one person that, witnessed a 'god' or gabriel

Any human being can write a book using the manmade word, that man created

BUT no god, ever in all existence has authored a book, unless some lying piece of garbage likes to post heresay claiming it is the 'word of allah'





. Debunked as usual.

I have challenged you and anyone here to be honest, compassionate and caring for others over their own heresay, but you cant!