How Australia sees America

A lot of that (I believe) comes from a lack of competition. In the cold war you constantly had something to measure yourself against. Look what happened when the Soviets got the jump in the space race. Before the Soviets it was Japan, before that it was the British and other European powers. Just like Rome, America needs its Carthage, without one it fears it will become directionless and lost.

 

I really cant argue with your points, but I will offer this, that I feel has some real modern parallels with how the US has interacted with the rest of the world...enjoy

[video=youtube;ExWfh6sGyso]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso&list=RD9foi342LXQE[/video]

 

That's a myth. America projects power not out of a sense of right or wrong, but in perceived self-interest of the principal architects of policy.

 

Well, I used to say Australia was about 20 years behind the USA in terms of policy and attitudes, but i can see with the Election of G.W. Abbott (our PM) that we're probably closer to 10 years behind. We're a bunch of fat, self-obsessed, contented, xenophobic, non-reading, Facebooking, USA fawning, flag-waving ignorant pricks with no empathy for the suffering of others and even less of an understanding about how that suffering comes to pass or how we contribute to it. It's embarrassing.

So don't worry; You're not alone in feeling the way you do.

 

The Citizens of the United States exist in such prosperous numbers relative to any other country of such a population as well U.S. Citizens are so diversified as they are basically a cross section of every nation, race, creed and color on Planet Earth that it is FOLEY to attempt to have one single base determination or comparison for use in determination of whatever the agenda of the week happens to be.

There exists only one real unifying aspect or marker found in just about all Citizens.....We are not afraid.

We are not afraid of failing....as we know we can turn such a thing around quickly to succeed.

We are not afraid of what anyone from any other Nation might think of us....as it matters not whether anyone likes us but they certainly must respect us for more reasons than I could type here.

And we are not afraid of CHANGE....because the United States....it's People and even it'sown Constitution was DESIGNED to be capable of change.

Other nations abilities of actual change.....not so much.

AboveAlpha

 

Emphasis added

Is it that you're not afraid of failing, or not afraid - of anything?

 

Personally....the ONLY thing I am afraid of is my still living Mom and Dad.

They have this very devious and torturous method of dealing with inter-parents-children issues.....they use LOGIC and then leave it up to you to fix the problem.

I would rather....and I am NOT either over stating this or joking.....have to by attrition...by myself....with only a PLASTIC SPORK....face an enemy Battalion....than have to see a specific look from my Mom or Dad.

AboveAlpha

 

With respect, and from a distance, i don't see that as typical. Americans appear to be afraid of nearly everything, and resort to violence far too easily to allay that fear. America has pretty much permanantly been at war since WWII and the only way i can conceive of that being politically tennable is by instilling fear into the American population (successfully). Australia has followed America, not out of fear of an enemy, but out of a fear that somehow we can't go it alone without America. It's a bit pathetic, because NZ manages it. But we're a lot richer than NZers - so we fear a reduction in our obscene standards of living (relatively speaking), so our servatude to American interests, which often presently mirror our own continues. That selfishness is what prompted my earlier strong opinions of Australians (and Americans earlier).

Because we're a pissant country, we can change directions pretty quickly, which is a relief. America less so - especially in a system whereby 47% of members of congress are millionaires and where ~90% of elected officials are re-elected (unless they resign). Sorry, no citations. First claim was on AlterNet and the second from Chomsky.

On a non-PC (yuk) device atm, so apologies for any typos/spelling errors and brevity

 

NZ does it by proxy though, through Australia.

 

I think if you ever get the chance to visit the States....and I have been to Australia several times....I think you would find that if anything the vast majority of American's are TOO UNAFRAID.

In a single year over 18,000 Americans die accidentally by slipping or falling in their bathrooms on in their own homes. 45,000 Americans die in vehicle accidents every year....and over 5000 Americans choke to death while laughing with food or drink in their mouths.

So when other Nations report on what a travesty and horrible numbers of U.S. Military members dead in Iraq and Afghanistan which is 5,281 Men and Women Soldiers....tragic as this is....the number PALES compared to other numbers of American Deaths.

Americans are more afraid of what our MILITARY RESPONSE will be and do and result in enemy deaths which come close to 1 Million or perhaps more in the last wars....then Americans fear Terrorist Activities.

NOTHING....is scarier than a well trained U.S. Marine or Special Forces Operative with a PLAN.

AboveAlpha

 

OK, totally distracted by this infuriatingly mysteriously common error:
"1 Million or perhaps more in the last wars....then Americans fear Terrorist Activities."

I'm going to presume that should be "than". No offence, it just really annoys me ( http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=316385&p=1062968420#post1062968420 )

For the rest, i'm sure you know your countrymen and women better than i. But if a country were so at peace with itself need to spend very nearly as much on it's military as the rest of the world combined, and it never even comes up? Sorry, i just asked a question i already know the answer to. Not many surveys are done, but i recall one from i think 2004 from Chicago that showed a greater percentage of Americans wanted to do things like reduce military spending, increase educational spending, health spending and the like - basically like most people. But that never happens. It never even gets reported. Turns out Americans are just as socialist as anyone else. http://www.thechicagocouncil.org/Us...04/US Public Opinion Global_Views_2004_US.pdf

Like most foreigners i probably, and with some justification, identify America through it's policies. America's democracy is so broken in my eyes that it no longer functions as a democracy. It is in fact a corporatocracy. It's hard to blame the ordinary American for that state of affairs. It happens gradually, over generations or decades. It's subtle, and often but not always secret.

Anyway, it is a bit disturbing to read that 5281 Americans have died in Iraq and Afghanastan (did you have to look that up?). The last number i knew of was 600,000 dead in Iraq... non American's though so that probably matters less (watch "The Yes Men Fix The World" for a sad and funny look at how the value of our lives, in dollar terms, are measured differently). Most of them were not "enemies". They were mums, dads and children Hey, the news here doesn't even bother reporting deaths anywhere in the world unless there were Australians involved.

I might sound overly critical of the USA, and i am. But i am at least as critical of Australia. The difference is, like i said before, we're a pissant country that has far less capacity to be an international ******** - but oh how THIS government is trying to be as big an ******** as it possibly can be. Their response to climate change is like watching an episode of Blackadder - the one where General Melchids plans to attach the Germans is mocked by the writers. If you haven't seen Blackadder - the 4th series is a MUST.

Much like the USA (presumably), there is a difference between what people want and what they get. I suspect both the people and the politicians of our countries are far too similar for my comfort.

 

Yes...my mistake....should have been THAN.

You have to understand that the population of the United States is in effect....although not percentage exact.....like looking at the multiple raced, religion, color, culture....etc...WORLD.

We have a huge CUBAN population in Florida that is SCREAMING..."Whatever we do....we DO NOT TAKE PRESSURE OFF CUBA!!!"

Now these people escaped Cuba and yes some were criminals who Castro ejected during the Cuban Boat People issue....BUT THESE PEOPLE ARE CUBAN'S AND THEY KNOW WHAT WILL WORK AND WHAT POLICY IS BEST!

There are many people around the world who criticize the U.S. dealings with Cuba but I will bet on the actual CUBAN'S who lived there before taking the advice from someone from Europe or elsewhere.

Then we have a HUGE number of Iraqi American's who happen to be some of the most LOYAL, APPRECIATIVE AND PATRIOTIC AMERICAN'S ALIVE....and they all said....."SADDAM MUST GO!!!" Now whether or not anyone has this opinion or that about Iraq....I don't think anyone would say..."Well....I WISH SADDAM WAS STILL RULING IRAQ."

We have again a HUGE number of Iranian American's and all of them say..."DON'T REMOVE SANCTIONS FROM IRAN AS THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO BRING ABOUT DEMOCRACY!!"

And then we have African American's who are calling for more U.S. involvement in African Civil Wars were genocide is the norm.

And then we have Polish American's who want us to build as many U.S. Military Bases as is possible in Poland as fast as possible to prevent Poland from EVER being under Russian control.

And we have MILLIONS of Chinese American's who want China to become a Democracy and call for the U.S. taking a hard line upon Human Rights.

And we Taiwanese American's who want us to supply Taiwan with as many High Tech. American Weapon Systems as is possible to defend themselves against China.

We have Million's of Korean American's who want us to Preemptively knock out North Korean Military capabilities as they have relatives in North Korea who are STARVING TO DEATH and they see this as the only way to get rid of the North Korean regime.

We have MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of Muslim American's who live peacefully in the United States and left the Middle East with their families to get away from CRAZY ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS AND VARIOUS ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS SECT INFIGHTING....and of these Millions there are specific groups each one over 1 Million in strength who desire their own specific agenda being fulfilled.

We have Millions of Japanese American's who have become so Americanized that companies like Toyota which sends High Ranking Toyota executives to over see the MASSIVE U.S. Toyota Car Plants as more Toyota's are built in the United States than in Japan....and what happens is that once Japanese Executives come to the United States and experience the FREEDOM that an employee even an Executive Employee feels compared to the oppressive nature that those living and working in Japan feel and the stress and pressure they are under.....and then spend some time in the U.S. living in a home that is 10 times larger than anything they had in Japan with a sprawling back yard and then these fresh from Japan Executives realize the REASON why Toyota and a lot of other Japanese Companies built massive plants in the United States is...........................................................

.............................................................................The Average American Worker is over 1.5 Times more productive than any other worker existing and working in any other country on planet Earth....and this includes Japan.

So these Executives come to realize very quickly that unlike Japan's Corporate Structure where every worker in Japan from the person washing the floor all the way up to the Top Executives.....ARE TOO SCARED TO DO ANYTHING OR SUGGEST ANYTHING OR ATTEMPT ANYTHING THAT THEY HAVE THOUGHT OUT ON THEIR OWN AND EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE A GOOD PLAN THAT WILL MAKE THINGS EASIER AND MORE PROFITABLE their attitude and culture that makes their BOSS or CEO literally a GOD LIKE OR IMPERIAL FIGURE......due to fear of being fired or disgraced.....NO ONE TAKE THE INITIATIVE!! NO ONE GOES OUT ON A LIMB WITH A GOOD IDEA!!!

In the U.S. people that have a better way of doing things will introduce such an idea to the CEO or their BOSS and if they don't like the idea such people go off and form their own companies and become WEALTHY.

So what happens now is the Millions of Japanese American's are calling on the U.S. Government to make it easier for Japanese Employees of Japanese Corps. to easily get Green Cards because the Japanese Corps. have put out a directive not to allow any Top Executives to be able to stay in the U.S. overseeing company operations for any length of time longer than 30 days as these Japanese Companies are stating they are experiencing a Skilled Employee or Executive BLEED OFF as their Executives and other Skilled Workers sent to the U.S. for 4 to 6 months are QUITTING THEIR JOBS AND SIGNING ON WITH AMERICAN COMPANIES.

I could go on all day about just how many different people who are American Citizens or Naturalized American Citizens who have come to the U.S. and now exist in VAST NUMBERS....MULTIPLE MILLIONS in groups specific to Ireland or Balkan Countries or Russia or Vietnam.....and Vietnam is a country that is PLEADING with the United States to invest in Vietnam and even are asking for the United States to once again establish a LARGE MILITARY BASE in what was Hanoi and is now Ho Chi Minh City in order to allow a large American Military Presence to protect Vietnam from their GROWING AND AGGRESSIVE MOST HATED ENEMY....THE CHINESE.

There are huge numbers of Vietnamese American's who are demanding that the United States do this and they site the multiple wars Vietnam has had with China and in particular the 1979 Chinese Invasion of Vietnam where China committed War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity upon a scale not seen since the atrocities often noted as the Killing Fields committed by the Khmer Rouge which was the name given to the followers of the Communist Party of Kampuchea in Cambodia who killed Millions of People.

My point of all this is that the United States has so many things and people it is responsible for and so many issues that it alone is capable of handling and also exists as the LARGEST FOOD PRODUCING NATION IN THE WORLD....as the U.S. ALONE grows more crops such as Corn, Wheat, Rye, Soybean...etc....and more Beef, Pork, Poultry...etc.....THAN THE ENTIRE WORLD COMBINED.....thus the WHO...the World Health Organization has stated that the U.S. Food, Medical, Mosquito Nets, Water Purification, Immunization and Genetic Crop Development AID is responsible for KEEPING ALIVE MORE THAN 1.5 BILLION PEOPLE A YEAR......my point is the United States is so complex a system that without it the rest of the Planet would have a very difficult time getting along without us.

We have a #1 in the World $17.7 Trillion Economy generated by a mere 317 Million People....compared to a #2 in the World Chinese Economy of $6 Trillion generated by a reported 1.4 BILLION PEOPLE....which is an under reported Chinese Population number as China's population is actually about 1.7 Billion...as China under reports their actual population numbers to show the WHO and Human Rights Groups that the Chinese Communist Government is improving life for the still in deep poverty and some starving Rural living Chinese.

So....we make mistakes? Absolutely.

Are we trying more so than any other country to make a difference? Without a Doubt!

Can we become better? Absolutely!

Do we take a lot of criticism from people of other countries that don't really understand the depth and scope of what we do?

Unfortunately yes.....but at least we listen.

AboveAlpha

 

Well, there's some stuff in there i fundamentally disagree with i couldn't possibly respond without taking far too much time out of other activities. I'll try to summarise.

The figures you present are, in my opinion are not relevant. Factory farming, genetic modification, harmful chemicals, massive and harmful subsidies (certainly to neighbours and American's health), military and economic enforcement of American trade demands (rules that suit American corporations but seldom equally others) and the like are not desirable in my view - so all that is a negative, rather than a positive in my view. So we can't debate that except by opening up a different discussion.

Americans are subject to the some pretty awful statistics when it comes to health outcomes, economic mobility and the like. The idea that a Americans who work hard or have a good idea can make it rich is so unlikely (relative to other OECD countries) that it is effectively a myth. Economic mobility and health outcomes are far poorer than they are for socialist paradises like Denmark and Sweden. There's other measures too, but i would have to drag up old research.

Iraq had one of the highest living standards in the world under Saddam. Then, with the blessing of the USA, he attacked Iran. That's when the USA gave him the chemical weapon know-how to use against the Kurds. At which time there was a no meaningful response by America. Then, after a decade of being the puppet in the region, Saddam went crazy and attacked Kuwait and it all went to poo from there. Of course he was a (*)(*)(*)(*), but like so many (*)(*)(*)(*)(*), he had full backing of the USA before he decided to 'disobey' and be an even bigger (*)(*)(*)(*). Of course people that leave these countries are going to be happier elsewhere. Many people stay where they are and are not tempted. There is much to be said for American freedoms. But there is also much to be said for America backing tyrants or demonising countries that want to do things differently. South/Central America is littered with examples of America's insistence that things be done their way - irrespective of the wishes of the majority of people in those countries. The USA was involved in the demolishing of south America's oldest democracy, that of Chile's into a fascist state with "free-market" principals not dared in America. Cuba has an illegal blockade imposed against it for the sole crime of being independent. What relevance is that blockade today? Haiti has been repeatedly raped by American corporate and political interests (the same thing).

America refuses to submit to the same standards it applies to others and doesn't even ratify basic elements of human rights like the protection of children. America is clearly a rogue nation, and a major supplier to and partaker in terrorism, and one needn't look far to see evidence of it. Australia happily obliges America and goes along with it. Like economic mobility myth, the notion that America intervenes anywhere out of some kind of altruism is laughable.

America is no different from anyone else but too many Americans (it seems) think they are. The "American exceptionalism" personality disorder is stamped across the world. I challenge any American to look up the definition of terrorism and explain to me how America does not come under that definition. This forum once saw an excellent thread about that very thing and it was clearly demonstrated by a couple of us that America is a terrorist state.

I would argue that most of what America does is not in the interests of the majority of it's citizens, and most of it's efforts are spent alienating, marginalising, neutering and confusing that majority. That Chicago survey is an excellent and rare example of that. It demonstrates that policy does not reflect will. Oh, it reflects the will of the principal architects of policy - the elite. America still has a lot going for it, but the negatives are too often unknown or overlooked and should be considered as part of the parcel. A bit to much flag-waving goes on for my liking. Or maybe that's just the image that we all see - a united America behind the policies that reflect the interests of the elite corporate masters, while the 'average American' is either completely ignorant or muted out of the debate. It happens here after all.

 

Interesting choice to raise.

The Khmer Rouge were the result of a power vacuum, in part from American meddling and the illegal bombing of Cambodia. America did not PUT them there, but they set the perfect conditions for them to take power.

At the same time, America and Australia were in bed with Indonesia and their invasion of East Timor. The Indonesians asked for America's blessings, and they got it in the form of military equipment. Indonesia managed to kill or displace about a third of East Timorese over the subsequent years. Statistically worse than Cambodia, but hardly known to Americans (or Australians).

 

You know....most American's would be perfectly happy if we simply were able to bring all our forces home and concentrate on our own country completely....but we have tried this many times in the past and we were even ISOLATIONISTS declaring that we would not once again send our men into another European War....but that all changed with Pearl Harbor.

Sure...there are many problems we must deal with but without us the world would be in total chaos.

How do I know this....because I know what the specific plans are for specific countries and they are not all Sunshine and Unicorns.

AboveAlpha

 

Enthralled

 

Everything right except for the chicks, over time they have become as fat as yours, sorry mate....

 

Ok, I hadn't seen this. Its hilarious. But I am horribly offended that the typical aussie isn't educated enough to know Oklahoma is not Ohio. There...I was practicing my arrogance and outrage. It is a cute map.

 

sn't it, OMG.

 

I scored you only a 6.5 in outrage - Clearly you missed the element of it being Obama//conservative// Tea party // Socialist // fascist

 

Remember there are about 320 Million Americans....thus 52% of them are Female....so I will be dating the 10% Hotties of those over 160 Million American Girls.

Clearly you have never been to California.

AboveAlpha

 

Wrong mate,
I have been there more then 3 decades ago. Quite beautiful at the time, I've kept good memories. ...

But 30 years ago most chicks were beautiful in downunder as well, compared to today's obese world.

We are accepting those things as far to normal, I think.

Have a great day!

 

I have been to California also, have you been to Australia?

 

A few of these will do me.

 

or these flag wavers....
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