In regards to Mar-A-Lago Price tag and Trumps fraud "trial".

A property is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. This is why banks do their own appraisal. It is not unusual for a Hollywood celebrity to list their Hollywood mansion for something like $20 million because that is what they thought they could get, but then 4 years later they have to drop the price to $7 million at which point it finally sells. This is not a crime. This is not fraud. It is speculation.

Once again, this is precisely why the banks do their own valuation. Just like with a private mortgage, the bank is going to lend based on how THEY value the property, not how the borrower values it.

 

Not on property values because there is no place on a real estate loan application for you to determine value.
Thats because no bank makes a real estate property loan based on anything other than their own evaluation.

 

Maybe MUCH MORE if it was put up for sale...
The experts weigh in:
Palm Beach real estate agents who specialize in high-end properties scoffed at the idea that the estate could be worth that little, in the unlikely event Trump ever sold.
“Ludicrous,” agent Liza Pulitzer said about the judge citing the county’s tax appraisal as a benchmark.
“That thing would get snapped up for hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars,” said Rob Thomson, owner of Waterfront Properties and a Mar-a-Lago member. “There is zero chance that it’s going to sell for $40 million or $50 million.”
Pulitzer said the rock-bottom price for Mar-a-Lago would be $300 million. Thomson said at least $600 million. If uber-billionaires got into a bidding war, they said, a sale of a billion dollars or more would be possible.

 

A metric for the market value. Why are you ignoring that? Wait, we know why, nevermind.

But, that's the whole point. This isn't complicated. His initial ruling was that Trump was liable and then the hearings were just for damages. MAL was the biggest example he gave for overvaluation and he claimed the tax assessment value was the "market value." Then he got eviscerated by Trump and the public for being an idiot and he slowly started walking it back. But, he already used it as his primary piece of evidence in his ruling. He didn't give Trump a chance to contest, didn't give a chance for witness testimony. He just found Trump liable out of the gate without even understanding how property values work. He shouldn't have even had the case. This case should have gone to the commercial courts where they handle these cases and have knowledge of property law. But he insisted on keeping it because of his terminal case of Trump Derangement Syndrome. He's a mental lightweight who had no idea what he was doing which is effectively why he let his clerk handle the case on his behalf.

 

You are probably going to be disappointed on appeal then — the case is extremely strong as they lied on financial disclosure and property reports. They might get the amount down some but it will likely be upheld.

I will ask again because none of you seem to be able to answer. Should it be legal to lie on a loan application?

 

In the Get Trump scenario, standards, due process, nor the Constitution has to be followed because this case is "different." The reason they used tax assessment values is because they though they could likely get away with it. Like charging fraud when there is no actual fraud shown or no damages to any of the supposed defrauded. The trick is to scour the statutes trying to find some obscure law that comes within a few thousand miles -- close enough in these scenarios -- of going against a political opponent.

 

Well, yes. That's what I was referring to. The Mar-a-Lago issue is relevant only in that it shows a pattern of deception. It's very likely I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

Well, the main issue here is it deceptive/fraudulent? If it is, the entire speculative gains market is fraudulent. The way speculative gains work is that after an evaluation(in this case of property, real estate), people place values on an estimate "We believe in 5-10, this company has the potential to grow or be valued at x amount of dollars).

Now if the company doesn't meet that value in 5-10 years that doesn't mean they cooked the books. It just means the company didn't grow that fast or well enough. Or ooh, the alternative: It grew even faster(Looking at it, this is typically the Trump business model of booms and busts. He doesn't have a portfolio of 'safe' investments.).

(Note that in the business world, 'safe' is a misnomer. It's all about mitigating risks. This is why Trump has trouble with loans, he's a high-risk client, despite being a billionaire)

Here, the claim the court upheld is that Trump got more favorable loans by overstating the value(or size, doesn't really matter to me or to the bank honestly) of the property, and thus somehow the State of NY has an 'interest' in correcting the financial ecosystem?(Lol, it makes no sense to me but that's their stated reasoning)

Well, if so, then the judgment should be the difference between the gains of the loan and the property itself. By making a 350 Million judgment though, the court literally agreed with Trump that it's a high-value property(even if not worth billions)

In actuality, what the court was trying to say with the 350 million judgment is that it believes Trump should've never got the property to begin with. But that wasn't what the case was supposed to be about lol.

 

I would say that reporting that your apartment is 3 times bigger than it actually is is deceptive, wouldn't you?

Look, you can tap-dance, spin in circles, .... but whatever you want to do there is no doubt in the mind of any moderately rational person who is not deep in the MAGA-cult that Trump is a criminal who belongs in prison.

 

Same old Trump BS

And this guy has the character to be President ?

When seeking to borrow its worth Lots

Shen paying taxes its a fixer upper

Donald Trump’s tax broker was forced to admit to authorities in 2020 that Mar-a-Lago had a market value of just $27 million — not the $517 million claimed in other documents, trial evidence revealed Monday.

 

Ahh, but in Trump's case, the evidence and testimony reveal that the Banks did, indeed, rely on Trump's evaluations. (Deutsche Bank is not a normal bank, fyi).

https://apnews.com/article/trump-fr...york-engoron-38bc3a7f2ccb22555c026e9bf70fd5bb

 

OK...I read your entire link.

What words in there (please cut and paste) do you think back up your claim above that the banks did in fact rely on his evaluations rather than doing their own appraisals? I must have missed that part because I see nothing that supports that assertion.

 

So all Trump needs to do is prove that Maralago is worth way more than $18-27m and Engoron will be guilty of fraud under the laws of NY.

 

So the entire premise of Bidenomics printing more money is a crime.

 

By stating Deutsche Bank is abnormal are you insinuating they would not cry fraud if they were defrauded??? As it was they thanked Trump very much and put all of their profits in their current assets. Only NY state cried fraud even though neither they nor anyone were defrauded.

 

.... or find someone that was actually defrauded.

 

Trump obtained three of the loans through Deutsche Bank’s private wealth management unit, which offered lower interest rates than its commercial real estate division, and used his financial statements to show the bank he was wealthy and a good credit risk.

I think what I'm learning about Deustche Bank is that on loans of this size, it's not so much about 'assessments', because on these buildings,they go more about Trump's financial position, his net worth, in cash flow, these things are considered. To say that they are going to base a loan strictly on the assessed value of a property isn't accurate. Values of buildings could vary far more significantly than houses that you and I would buy in a strict, very predictable, 'comp' - able (meaning you can't really comp a skyscraper like you can a house). real estate market.

Thing is, Trump exaggerated into the stratosphere, and that the banks didn't care, from the state's point of view, doesn't mean fraud was not committed. The point is Trump did this far more egregiously than other RE operators did, that's the point.

 

The Judge and the Prosecutor are completely corrupt. They stole nearly a half billion from Trump in a Feudal raid disguised as lawful proceeding. If Trump's elected, his US Attorneys are going to half to take a good look into these robbers.

 

They can’t.

 

People wonder why Trump is so nasty and vindictive. The answer is his opponents are nasty and vindictive. They never gave him a chance. They started after him as soon as he won the 2016 election and denied them their “right” to continue their political rule.

When you have people screaming at the sky like a pack of insane wolves, you know you are dealing with irrational individuals. This is what the education system has created.

 

Thats your proof?

Seriously? Where does it say they do not do their own assessment as you have alleged? It says nothing of the sort. That is a generalized statement by the author of your article. It means nothing in regards to what we are discussing. Of course generally you can say evaluations are submitted to determine loan risk, but that does nothing to dispel the reality that banks perform their due diligence when loaning out big sums of money. They would be utter fools to not provide their own determinations for such an obviously subjective assessment. The bigger the loan amount, the more scrutiny that a bank employs to determine values. You have presented nothing that means this truism was not followed. These banks don't depend on the government to protect them in such matters.

 

Know what's funny? Even if Trump "exaggerated" on his property value by 2300% (he didn't), all that would mean is a bigger bill for himself and more money for the bank via interest. Since he paid off the loans that means that the bank made more money than they would have had they gone by a far lower value. Sure don't sound like victims to me.

 

What are you going on about! If Trump declared the lower property value for the same amount of loan the interest rate would have been higher and/or he may have been asked to offer more security. And if the loan went towards an investment that failed the bank would been been left with a property whose value was lower than the value of the loan

 

Bold: The loan in question was worth over 100 million. No bank is going to give a loan of 100 million for a property worth a quarter or less than that. Even with the highest interest rates that they could do. So yes, more security would have been required for getting the same amount.

Underlined: You're dealing in a "what if". NO JUDGEMENT from ANY COURT should be based on a "what if". It should ONLY be based on the facts. And the fact is that Trump paid the loan off with interest. And even if you accept the ridiculous market value Engoron used, that means that the banks made FAR more money than they would have if Trump hadn't used the market value he did. That's not conjecture. That's based on the facts.

And that is exactly why this case is so messed up. Its based on one huge "what if!!!" for something that factually did not happen.

 

LOL you started your previous post with "Even if Trump "exaggerated" on his property value by 2300%" ! And now you're running away from your statement