In regards to Mar-A-Lago Price tag and Trumps fraud "trial".

What did they say about it that wasn't true. There's a reason you can't be specific when defending this fraud.

 

Jesus, dude, he wasn't exaggerating the value of property to banks when getting loans for those properties. Where do you guys come up with this ****? No, he exaggerated the value of his properties when using them as ASSETS when securing other loans. No, exaggerating the value of your ASSETS when securing a loan isn't going to do you any harm (aside from the legal jeopardy it puts you in) . . . it does the bank harm. It doesn't raise your rates. It lowers your rates and it raises their risk. And, yes, it means the bank makes LESS money than they otherwise would have. Has a single Trump defender followed ANY detail of this case at all?

 

Yes, its called arguing from the other sides point of view. Its conceding a point for the sake of an argument in order to make an overall point. If you can't tell the difference between that and what you did then I simply don't know what to tell you. Get better?

 

Sounds to me like you also are playing a "what if". "IF" Trump had asserted X as the value of his property then the bank "might have" given him a different interest rate. Not only that but you assert that interest rate would have been higher at a lower valued property than the higher value that Trump used.

And enough with the "raises their risk" crap. Trump paid off the loan with the interest required by the bank. As such it can be asserted factually that there was no actual risk.

 

What fraud? A much smaller vacant lot in that area can sell for a couple hundred million dollars.

 

The facts of the case are the banks did much of their own appraising (as Trump said they should), made the loan, got paid pack with booku interest and said they in no way were defrauded by anybody. The only ones disputing (actually just ignoring) them are the AG of NY and the judge, but that is of course because they are on a political mission.

 

I probably would defend the fraud but I cannot find any fraud to defend anywhere.

 

Fraud is not a victimless crime. There are 5 elements of fraud that must be proven:

• a material misrepresentation or omission of fact
• made by the defendant with knowledge of its falsity
• intent to defraud
• reasonable reliance on the part of the plaintiff
• resulting in damage to the plaintiff

No bank has claimed to be the victim of fraud or to have suffered damages. The elements of fraud were not met.

 

I've asked before for evidence that those five are required for civil fraud. No one replied with an answer. And the Org has already been found guilty of criminal fraud as well. That was for taxes. And you are literally arguing it should be legal for me to shoot at someone as long as I miss. Or drive drunk as long as I don't hit anyone. Or speed wherever I want. Victimless crimes!

 

Would you like a bigger shovel?

 

The courts did. Maybe try reading?

 

A vacant residential lot with no government liens against it? How did Trump come up with the supposed value of the property? And why did Trump argue in the past that the number we are talking about now is way too high?

 

I like this because it brings back the memory of my response to the election bigots who said 'there has been no fraud proven!' to which I reply, to no avail, if they have any clue on how hard it is to prove fraud in a court of law -- not withstanding the current judge and AG in Trump's case where it is as easy as getting up in the morning.

 

Trump didn’t come up with the value. The real estate market did. That is supported by people in that industry there.

Some people don’t understand how business is conducted.

Like I said. Vacant lots half the size are selling for 200 million dollars in that area.

 

The court did not find any fraud. It just made it up.

 

This is common sense. I don't know why you would even have to ask this. But here you go.
https://casetext.com/case/swersky-v-dreyer-traub

Here's another example: burglary. You can be charged criminally, but you can also be sued civilly for the damages. Lawsuits are about damages. That's kind of the whole point. This case is akin to the state going after someone for burglary when the alleged "victim" says the alleged burglar didn't take anything from them.

This is the first judgment of this kind in the history of New York for "fraud" when there is no complaining victim. It has literally never happened before. The state of NY was admitted to the United States in 1788. Two-hundred and fifty years of civil fraud cases in NY, and nothing like this has ever happened before. They're just making up new stuff as they go along.

 

Well, much of Deutsche Bank's loans were based on their assessment of DJT's worth.

DJT said he was worth $4 billion, and DB adjusted it to $2,5 billion, the minimum they would accept to loan..

Ahhh, but there's the clincher. Trump is not worth anywhere near $2.5 billion, it was $1.6 billion, upon closer scrutiny (according to James. It all boils down to what is true, and what isn't. We, as persons in the peanut gallery, really don't know).

THAT is what this fraud case is about.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/10/trump-deceived-deutsche-bank-former-exec-testifies/

The Deutsche Bank exec, Nicholas Haigh, was testifying in Manhattan as part of New York Attorney General Letitia James’ $250 million civil fraud lawsuit against Trump. Going over internal documents in court with Haigh, James’ attorneys showed that the bankers didn’t really believe all of Trump’s claims about his wealth. They estimated that Trump was significantly less wealthy than he claimed, but they were still convinced that he had more money than he really did.

[Letitia] James contends that Trump didn’t have anywhere near enough wealth to qualify for the loans he received, and she alleges that the financial statements he gave to Deutsche and other institutions were fraudulent because he vastly over-valued his real estate properties. New York judge Arthur Engoron, who is overseeing the case, has already ruled that he agrees.

And now, with the $500million fine, he can't come up with anywhere near the money, (a small percentage of a bond) to qualify for an appeal, which suggests that Letitia was right.

Now, if you don't like MJ mag, feel free to dispute the content.

 

In other words.....You have abandoned the claim that the proof of your assertion (that the banks did not do their own appraisals of property) was contained in the link you provided which is what this conversation has been about. Instead, you are putting forth yet another excessively long filibuster aimed not at proving your point, but rather at getting the other person to tire of you, move on, and ultimately stop pointing out your constantly moving goalposts.

You are nothing if not exhausting.

 

Again, I ask you to quote the law. Again, you flee.

So, if someone attempts burglary and fails, you are saying they can't be criminally charged or be held civilly liable. You are ****ing riot, dude.

Back here in the real world, there are criminal charges for attempting a crime, even if you fail to complete it.

 

So breaking the law is ok if you make money from it. Got it.

 

This doesn't seem like a serious response. I cited

 

Bingo. I've brought that up too.

The bank wanted his business, they had their own estimation of his worth (which was about half of what Trump said he had), and bent over backwards to get his business.

And if Trump went to them today for a loan, they'd do it all again.

Some fraud, eh?

 

Yeah... isn't it amazing?

 

Applying for a loan and claiming your 1980's Ford vehicle is worth $50k isn't a crime.

Your appraisal of how much your property is worth is irrelevant.

The lender decides the value of your collateral. Ask any pawn shop in the country.

Collateral fraud is extrinsic fraud, and requires harm to the lender.

It is not enough to suggest your collateral is worth more than it might be, but you must also have some form of damages.

I.E. someone puts a up collateral and hides problems with the property to get a loan that is then defaulted on.

This case in NYC has NO PRECEDENT in law.

It's just another example of a multi-state conspiracy by leftists to either bankrupt or prevent Trump from becoming POTUS.

Huff and puff away.

 

So here's the thing about a tax assessment valuation. It isn't a market value assessment.
Every state, and even every county uses a different process to determine "value". In Florida they take into account what the property is used for, "market value" which is little more than a comparison of similar sold properties and the historical prior evaluations, along with a bit of guessing on the part of the appraiser.

Tax value is not market value.
Insurance value is not market value.
Market value is what someone is willing to pay for a property.

Now, a property owner can appeal the tax evaluation.
And when we're talking MILLIONS and Trump it isn't a surprise that he'd appeal his tax valuation.
Probably every year.

Now the thing about the court even mentioning tax or insurance evaluation, or even for that matter, loan value, is that it entirely misses the point; fair market value is NOT any of those other things.

And we still have the problem that there isn't a victim complaining that Trump defrauded them.
Since the state of New York has **** all to do with the market value of a property they can't be a victim.
Now James argued that the state has an obligation to dig out dishonest business practices.
Fine.
The problem with Trumps fraud case is that to even think Trump was being dishonest requires her to define how "fair market value" is set IN NEW YORK and she never did that. All she did was argue that Trump's valuation was fraudulent.
Cause she said so.

Mark this spot. This Engoron ruling is gonna get tossed on appeal.